When you read this tomorrow, you missed my point or I wrote it incorrectly (most likely). At this moment I am not sure if components work outside of Bootstrap. For instance, can I create components if I am doing a static site? So my thought was maybe I could create these reusable sections and apply them to my WP theme without Bootstrap. I do not want the extra code Bootstrap brings and I want to have that flexibility of arranging things in different media queries. This should probably be another thread!
I’m not at all familiar with Oxygen, but one of the things that makes Pinegrow less “newbie-friendly” is that it’s really geared towards people who have an understanding of how HTML and CSS work. Pinegrow allows you to do so much that not having a basic familiarity with how websites are coded can make the program seem overwhelming. Not to mention, it’s very easy to “break” things in Pinegrow because it doesn’t stop you from deleting whatever you want. The “undo-redo” feature is kinda half-baked as well, which doesn’t help things.
A lot of the questions I’ve answered here are from people who’ve figured out how to start building a page in Pinegrow, but then they get stuck because they don’t know how to code, so they don’t understand what’s going on “behind the scenes.” So my answer is often, “you need to learn HTML/CSS” which is not what people looking for a “website builder” want to hear. I’ve told people more than once, “if you’re not willing to learn HTML/CSS, you might be better off with using Wix or Weebly or even Webflow.”
But of course those are more costly routes, and more restrictive.
I would describe Pinegrow as more of an HTML/CSS Editor than a Website Builder, though you can of course build sites with it.
It is high time for Pinegrow stuff to work on detailed and up-to-date documentation.
Having to ask questions that otherwise official and well organized resources could awnswer is not acceptable anymore. We all love Pinegrow but love, as you know, is not enough after some time.
I while back I sent a mail to the support asking for the documentation on working with @media queries on PG. Still no reply.
this is the only info I found on PG https://pinegrow.com/search?s=Media+queries.
PG has been improving impressively over the last years but need to be documented at the same pace.
Ovviusly this carence (might be) is because little internal resources and this lack of internal resources is plain simple… small numbers…
Perhaps going social could help speed up in this sense… (and hey kids, don’t worry, your pg app would still be your niche pro tool …) that with dense docs and resources.
On the light of what has been said, any additional mean and channel is well welcomed IMO.
And I would absolutely add the must of understanding WP under the hood. I am one of those guys that is really working over time to catch up on knowledge that would make me more proficient in building sites which is why you will see many questions from me coming up.
I believe there will be many people at/or near my level of knowledge because Pinegrow is an “aha” moment program that just floors you with what it can do. Without my efforts to understand WP PHP, the videos about Pinegrow > WP do not stick at all. Not a chance. So there will also be more aha moments when it comes to HTML/CSS. Finding out about CSS variables was a great aha moment completely unrelated to Pinegrow. Someone from the FB group pointed me towards the direction of CSS-Tricks for keeping the footer at the bottom of the page via CSS Grid. Cool stuff.
I watched the newer WP videos last night and just shook my head at what could be achieved. About to watch it again so I can take notes this time and be.able to help impart what I learn to people like me.
The search function in the forum is not the greatest and it really hurts in the documentation. I find some things more easily searching “Pinegrow, x” in Google.
red-rosefields, it is pretty clear that creating PG is what PG likes to do while documentation is not “as fun”. I am very appreciative of their latest videos on WP and CSS Grid. Of course, I would love to see the documentation updated as well as more detailed videos. Either way, I work best by detailing what I learn as I learn.
Excellent @jtkay, I too have to do that.
Yes, keep making your notes as they might be the only docs that see the light of day on some topics.
I’m sure it will all sort out as its just like virtually all developer led apps.
The work goes into the app as can be seen by the monumental amount of stuff that Pinegrow can now do,
It’s just the blind man in a cave thing of trying to figure out some of the things that is a hindrance and EXACTLY like you said about Wordpress and PHP and eloquently put by @Printninja, about people, basically really needing to learn and fully understand the coding principles required or at leas, be capable of searching the required behaviours, how to achieve them, then posting queries, when nearly there.
You know, at least meet the people who your asking for help half way and TRY first.
as that is how. you learn
No one learns without mistakes (in my case, usually many) so make some…lots learn more , faster that way
I have no real understanding of the underpinnings of Wordpress tbh so I’m rather quiet on that topic here. it’s still listed, along with the other ten thousand things I have to do.
but right now…off to feed someone else’s horses they dumped in a field and forgot about.
tally ho and thanks for all the ideas and feedback @jtkay, we have some forward looking activity on here.
A Facebook Group would be a nice addition, but to be fair they should work on the documentation more than anything else. Right now is very messy, considering how much PG changed.
Wow, what a lively thread. I have to agree on most of the points. Pinegrow is amazing, it has crappy documentation (which isn’t really needed if you are a developer like me), and I’d love to see new people come on board but don’t have time to help them.
Since Pinegrow won’t bother to update their documentation and has very limited training for noobs would a group of Pinegrow Pro’s and novices be interested in creating a website, social groups (including FB), and trying to monetize the website and training material. It’s something I’d love to do but my team and I don’t have time to manage the whole thing.
- Monetize via ads (and if PG would get their act together possibly Affiliate Marketing)
- Monetize by selling premium “learn to code with PG” courses
- Help the community grow (ensuring we have our precious PG running for ages to come)
If we can monetize the website and social groups I could justify the time need to monitor and add to the website.
Nice Idea but I just dont get one major point.
well two or three
there is a slack channel with over 2000 people. yay.
very very few interest on there… and questions can linger…
There is a forum (hi guys! Look! we are on it! )
Very very few inter act.
I mean for instance, and this is NO meant bo be dismissive but your profile shows. you as joining in Oct 2017… and have read 76 posts since then and posted 5 times…
So this is an average of one post every 3 + 1/4 months…
now why on earth would I want to join YET ANOTHER …funnel … run by someone who posts every … just to sit and stare at yet ANOTHER … tumble weed littered screen.
The Slack channel is up,
the Forum is up,
Create a CHANNEL on here, for all the things you described!
suddenly monetising and someone wants to take ownership of this as it is rewarding.
Well if no one posts…good luck monetising that>
build the XYZ and the people will come
well, here it is,
why aren’t you interacting on it?
Facebook is for the devil p
I aint going there at all.
and actually sorry if I TOO! have been quiet on here, recently < I got my life turned upside down by a sick horse I found
and yesterday started helping out in a horse rescue charity type thing…
yeah, site needs a little love… but I am clearing up yards and poo tmrw… I will suggest it though.
today I was with sick and neglected horses including Lily, truly shocking.
then back to feed the two abandoned ones I had found that got me into this
got back here about 10pm.
SO yeah sorry I aint been so active the past couple of months (wow I ve been feeding and researching random horses for that that long!)
But anyway, so yeah, instead of spreading the info thinly over YET ANOTHER outlet, why not concentrate It HERE?
I have been meaning to create a web interface that BETTER directs to search for info on our existing docs, especially the old Beta docs.
There are some GREAT info resources out there for us by Pinegrow team.
Just difficult to find/search sometimes and yes, quite a lot is dated.
it might be a good idea if docs for new features etc were released WITH the new features
and kept as docs for a particular VERSION…
I have written this before.
I think the problem is that Pinegrow devs are SO prolific in their releases (YAY! well done) that The Docs …sort of dont catch up…then, new releases.
Someone SHOULD go through them all… THAT position could be a fanboy or a monetised one.
and find the gaps and segregate the docs into different versions.
that would be ACE!
I offered a long time ago and have muttered about it occasionally.
so that’s just my 2 cents …euros…Pennies etc.
Don’t divide and conquer rather, enhance and unify.
and I, of course , wouldn’t touch facebook with a very long stick… although I might consider a cattle prod
I just dont get why facebook is great sort of attitude.
If people cant be arsed to post on here, why would they post MEANINGFUL info on there?
and then watch it all disappear on the timeline…get spammed with LOADS of stupid comments, pictures of kids in balloons… giraffes on pogo sticks…whatever…
OH! and as an aside, someone who was ahead of the curve on something similar was
you could see what he is up too and if he fancies a collaboration
Wow, what a long response, thanks. I don’t read, help, or post b/c I don’t have time. I’m all about building the community, but not on my dime.
I have made my argument for FB and I am sticking with it. I would be lost without the videos that PG does. While I would love updated docs, I would much rather see more videos that go into detail. The WP and the CSS Grid videos are informative and I am pretty sure I will never say duplicate the same way again!
I have two sites that I went back to Oxygen for because I do not have time to learn the small things about Pinegrow that are inherent in builders. I will start back with PG after they are done. I am using PG to frame the markup and styling of some portions of those sites (which is one of the reasons I bought it).
People do not interact as much with PG and that is puzzling to me. I do appreciate those that have chimed in on my questions. I do think the messy docs might scare away some, though. It is frustrating to be forwarded to a doc that was never completed. But I really like the idea of the software and I’ll eventually put it all together.
The private group on FB is there for anyone who wants to join. I asked a couple of questions on Slack with no answer.
ok so not contributing unless on paid time?
ok…I think thats not quite the the definition of community, this is some other, "business* model.
Well, give it a go, see what happens,
but if people dont bother to post on thier time and dont get free responses, then I wouldn’t have thought you would be inundated with people who have to pay to get responses .
The premium training vids could be an idea however…as with the docs,
you would be screwed when they Bring in the Dancing Neon Penguins interface
or 3D spinning Text editor Undo Action
as, all YOUR vids and docs would be out of date.
they do release a lot
the PineFactory is a bouncing place… now if the Docs Plant could catch up that would be mighty cool.
But! as is often the case, I could be wrong.
go for it, find some others and let us know how it goes.
I am now knackered and off to dream of Horses…
nighty night @jonroc good luck
Here’s a question (kinda off topic but bear with me)…
Why doesn’t someone create a forum/website/Facebook Group with all sorts of tutorials and videos on how to use the new Yamaha Genos Keyboard/Arranger.
The thing is an absolute beast. It has hundreds and hundreds of settings, and can practically function as an entire orchestra. You could compose a symphony with this thing. For someone who’s never played the piano before, they could really benefit from a comprehensive guide on how to play the Genos, compose music with, program it, etc… etc…
The answer, of course, is that most people who are interested in learning how to play a piano, 1) Don’t need a machine this sophisticated, and 2) Will give up long before they become proficient. The Facebook marketplace is littered with people selling introductory keyboards because they grew bored, or realized learning an instrument is never as easy as the advertisements make it seem.
But give the Genos to a person with a true gift and passion for making music, and they will bury themselves in the thing for endless hours until they figure out every last feature. They’ll spend countless hours learning how to play, compose and create music with it. I’ve seen kids do this with all kinds of things… give ten kids skateboards at Christmas. At the end of the summer, five of them no longer touch the things, four of them are competent at riding them, and one kid is like Tony Hawk.
There are many, many sites where you can learn how to play the piano. Tons of YouTube tutorials, free courses, paid courses, you name it. The same goes for coding websites. Anyone can learn how to build a website without spending a dime, or they can pay for courses, or even go to school to learn it.
When you have a passion or ambition to learn something, you’ll pursue it with a burning intensity. You’ll put in the hours and figure it out. You’ll watch the videos, study the courses, do whatever it takes. The best coders, and what we used to call “hackers” (back in the 80’s and 90’s), all of us were self-taught. Sleep? What’s that?
Pinegrow is like the Yamaha Genos. It’s very complex, overwhelming to a beginner, and can do VASTLY more than what the average person who wants to build a website will ever need. To get the most out of Pinegrow, you pretty much HAVE to learn HTML and CSS. A complete beginner might be able to squeak out a site with Pinegrow without knowing code, but it will certainly be limited, or at best, filled with a lot of errors and poor practices… because Pinegrow allows you to do anything, even if it’s wrong.
Simply put, it’s not a great program for a person looking to dive in and start building websites (unless they’re willing to stick very closely to one of the provided templates.) Site builders like Weebly or Wix are a lot more “idiot-proof” and easy for newbies to figure out. They don’t let you drag things to the wrong places, or break components by typing an errant key.
However, a person with a burning passion for learning how to build websites will master Pinegrow through sheer force of will. They’ll spend endless hours on this forum, and YouTube, and Stackoverflow and jsfiddle and W3Cschools, and wherever, just plowing through the obstacles until they learn what they need to know. The information they need (learning HTML and CSS) is already out there in abundance. Once you know that, Pinegrow becomes infinitely less intimidating.
The point of my long-winded post is not to discourage people from learning Pinegrow, or how to play the piano, but rather to illustrate that whether it’s websites or music, we have to learn crawl before we can walk, and Pinegrow is not a good program for people who haven’t even learned to crawl (or learned to code), and that’s exactly what you have on Facebook and other social media platforms.
Inspiring…up to your point about Facebook groups. Don’t get me wrong; the generic PHP or Wordpress groups on FB are bad…very bad. The Oxygen group is awesome. It has people of every level and people are always helping each other. As long as we are talking about music gear, I am an audio engineer and some of the mixer FB groups act as tech support in a pinch when you need a quick answer.
And even though you make an impassioned point, the fact is that getting information could be easier. If it was one or the other, I would rather PG keep on with making it better and I will be that person that makes it happen hopefully with some help from others despite the docs.
I hope I do not sound as if I am complaining because I share most of your attitude, so I will be ok. Happy to have found PG.
I jus love the initial surrealism of this , at the beginning…>
…would anyone like a toffee apple ,or pickled aardvark?
The developers of Pinegrow from what I can tell only respond in three locations. The official Slack Channel, this forum and in private email to support.
The official Pinegrow facebook page is infrequently posted to, mostly for updates to Pinegrow.
From what I see here and in Slack the bulk of the questions to developers go unanswered. Especially plugin developers.
As we have indicated in the past, we wish both the Slack and the forum to be community driven and we essentially wish to bring a caring presence to it. (especially moderation).
Direct support is provided via our support email. https://pinegrow.com/contact-us/
There, our team provide assistance with specific Pinegrow features, billing and/or licensing issues.
Note: We’re unable to provide extensive support or step by step / custom instructions / guides about HTML and CSS, Bootstrap & Foundation frameworks, and extended custom functionalities related to WordPress.
However, we take good note of all the questions/use case we receive and depending on the frequency of similar requests, we may improve Pinegrow or publish specific tutorials on our documentation site in the future.
Could you guys make an affiliate program? I would create in depth documents and tutorials if there was an affiliate program. I’d love to help for free but I just don’t have the time to do anything meaningful. Personally I’m happy with the high level of updates you do. That’s more important to me but to newbies the docs/videos would be more important.
I totally agree with the WP knowledge… that’s critical for any project success. Using Pinegrow to substitute for that, or worse yet use a visual builder like Divi, is not going to help the developer or the client. PG is a tool for those who know PHP and WP on a working level, want to decrease production time, and facilitate templating as part of that process. I’m not going to say this is an entry-level development app, because it’s not, a lot of the interface requires back-end knowledge.
I just read this and echoed that in a response just now to another member… this isn’t an entry-level tool. Just because it has a nice UI doesn’t equate to Wix, Divi, or something similar. You need to have development knowledge, period. Without it, you’re just taking a stab at projects for a client who’s probably paying market rates and that’s really not a great situation to be involved in.