I feel disappointed in myself that I ignored Foundation - I have @Rob to thank for the gentle nudge towards Foundation.
http://foundation.zurb.com/grid.html
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@Jack Iām delighted to hear you are seeing the merits of Foundation, personally my preferred framework. Iāve only 1550 other Pinegrow users in the Slack team to convince. I find it to tick all the boxes youāve mentioned and like you it just felt right for me by comparison to Bootstrap. I hope it serves you well and Zurb have a lot of useful information on their site and YouTube channel, tutorials, etc thatās worth looking at. Looking forward to seeing what you do with it.
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@Rob - āit just feels rightā sometimes in life, that is it! Something just feels right!
mmm, interesting. ok! so, in a nutshell, I see less bloat, more zing, er, whatever, so ,! for a sort of newbie/lazy learning, whats the maximum funkyness of foundation and just how does it make you go oooh, and personally, just all those dang bootstrap sites look the same! banner, blocks, layout, blah blah. I would like to creat NON BOXEY websites!
I may just have too. but, as I newbie/lazylearner, I sure as hell see the advantage of a framework, but, alas, its the welcome mat to http://genericwebsite.yuk
schpengle - you sucked me in there as I knew your link was fake but I couldnāt resist clicking!
As for the boxy aspect - this is where designers are caught out, especially when working on big projects as Iām currently redesigning a website for someone and the work involved - my god, I mean there is so much work, all these little fine details, testing and so on - its no wonder most websites look the same as design can take hours.
I remember this guy on another forum he used to be quite mouthy and say ādesign is easyā and then I found one of his old comments saying āIāve ripped apart my site over 100 times because I was never happy with the designā - funnyā¦I thought design was easy lol
Iām getting bored of the blocks look but because of mobile web design, you have to work with blocks - but if you put up a link to a website that you think is fresh, you think is different, once iāve finished this project Iāll upload a video at some point showing how I would approach such a design.
Yes! a click! I got one! Your machine has just been added to my KittyBot network 
hee hee. and yeah, the whole framework thing. I worked for a web design company back in 2008, http://ergonet.org , the boss had developed his whole own CMS called ARIA (Artist Release and Informationā¦Aardvark? I could never remember the last bit) and while the graphicy guy, I could happily toss out of the window did make very nice designs Mostly - but I do remember some of them. and , coming from my hippy background the websites, tend be to a littel different - lets look shall we?
as it was mostley alternative/hippy things we were involoved withā¦
oh no! its gone āThe way of the Frameā!
http://www.greengathering.org.uk/
well, in fact, all of them have beenā¦ modernised
http://twofeathers.co.uk/shop/index.php
that one has gone the way of the "Press* . wordpress.
lets see ā¦ ah lets see, its all changed! He had had enough of web stuff, folded the company and,
well, now makes music!
ā¦I bet all the people who invested thousands in the non existent servers and now defunct CMS were thrilled.
but, I digress and have gone off topic.
How unlike me!
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99/100 for āmobile friendlinessā ā¦however ā¦
Sloppy - I would have sleepless nights if I knew the text was overflowing lol
But I can see what you think is fresh - it reminds me of designs from early 2000, a guy I know (he has successful web design business) in the states and has kept to the same style - problem is few of his sites are responsive, so be interesting to see if he changes his style (I stalk his portfolio).
as an aside.
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/06318154/officers
tehy were interesting times, I mean, how many times can one guy resign?
I left in 2008, seeing the writing on the walls. I, however, never worked in the web business agian.
sniff
that was my one shot at
it sob
and yep. pretty much thats about it, the DESIGNS were like *HEy! we can do this! Ive a great idea! *
Photoshop
slice
some other app
DIce
GLitter
Whooosh!
Spry WIdgets
javascriā¦ wah?
more glitter
TADA!!
so yeah, I get the whole box model idea, but, at the endā¦they are still boxes. ugh
Brighton - Glastonburyā¦Iām seeing a pattern here! 
He may be settled in Ibiza!
hee hee! yeah, so anyway! BACK TO FOUNDATION!
go on, show me something nice and explain some Foundations Niceties to me.
Pleeease
This is me messing around - never attempted this style of design before within Pinegrow but you can clearly see it can work - it just requires adjustments, such as adjusting the row (css) for the row to match the screen size as with the relative, it needs adjustments for when the layout adapts.
Itās random, just going with the flow but if you want to design like a hippy or go back to the 90ās - you can! Itās all css and working with the row/columns - testing the layout and this is the beauty of Pinegrow - you can see everything take place as you experiment.
ps. my chromebook was struggling there! its nearly time for a new machine but the chromebook lives on lol
Thatās me making quick adjustments and viewing the screen at under 300px and all viewable - it all depends how much effort you want to make - and if I wanted I could design that way in Foundation or Bootstrap - all the same principles apply.
this is why I think of PInegrow as a playground when experimenting, it allows you to try anything you want and because it doesnāt generate code - you discover what works (and what doesnāt work).
NIceā¦ (rounded corner, but stillā¦)ā¦ āboxesā
In the future css shapes will change web design, but for now , you have to work with boxes and get creative with borders.
Also remember you can use images as backgrounds for these shapes - so instead of having a colour, you can use patterns.
I meanā¦
anyone seen?
but, I rather fancy the idea of images, with a background color as you say, with certain edges, fading out to the same background colour of ā¦a background imageā¦or image, so that pics seems to leak and ooze into each otherā¦ and
thereby get rid of the mandatory visual box model - which is still there at a structural level, but, not a visual one. I really need to get cleverer and manifest my work up on the world.
and LO!
they did look upon it and (it sucked? Nay!) it was good!
schpengle this is the problem posting on this forum - I allow myself to get dragged into playground mode (even though I enjoy it) lol I hope you do experiment and get creative because if you really want, you can use big world class photos and text, if you want to build websites - that is what everyone does.
And Iām not trying to be funny because Iāve done it (I love photography) - but you donāt learn anything by dropping a big photo into a page and adding text.
Anyway - thats me out of here for awhile because I really need to focus on finishing these projects and stay away from playground mode.
Nice new avatar, ready for the beach cubicle. 
I am curiousā¦
How so, care to explain the aspects?
What essentials do you need / require? Like grids, breakpoints, media queries that are ready to use? Or other aspects of the frameworks, if so what?
From using both versions of Foundation, so far I like:
- The grid system
- Learning to work with rem
- Less CSS styling (using default version in Pinegrow)
- Collapsible Rows
- Responsive gutters
Iāve also started designing for mobile first (rather than laptop) and sometimes you need a change of environment to realise bad habits you have fallen into.
With bootstrap (which is an excellent framework) I was focused on block building, rather than complete websites and while building blocks is fun and an excellent way to build up a user library - whenever I started a design in bootstrap, I was designing with smart components in mind - I donāt do that within Foundation.
I only had a glimpse of the essentials download but will look at that in future so may need a custom version - but why are you quoting replies from another thread? lol You know Iāve said I can work in any framework but from using foundation and reading the resources from their website it just feels right.
BTW @Pinegrow_User why dont you upload some of your work and share your years of experience! Iām sure everyone could learn from your experience? 
I shall have to look at Foundation again. I know Rob rather likes it !