An interesting take on this issue which seems to happen to web/graphic designers, artists and musicians above any other industries. If you’re going to accept this type of offer (personally I don’t think you should) then have a look at this solution. Work for Fame!
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Um, like every hippy job I have ever had?..
EVuuuuuuuuuuur!
Have you looked at this document Rob? is it at all readable/relevant in our part of the world?
@Pinegrow_User its one of those things that I have no time for and if I ever get asked to submit my designs for a business who are looking for a new design for project X and that they will be selecting the winner from the entries I always say no, in fact if they are an existing client I also explain that I can no longer do work for them as I’m opposed to this exercise and see it as an unacceptable attitude towards my industry and shows a complete lack of respect for what we do. I highlight to them that if I were to book a hotel room or an airplane seat I’d be asked for my credit card in advance so they could bill for anything I might incur or even bill if I cancel at the last moment. Of I wouldn’t get away with going into any shop, pub, restaurant and taking something and letting them know that when I’ve gone to another few establishments I’ll be making a decision and letting them know if they won and then they’ll get paid… but no guarantee if you don’t win that you’ll get it back or even get paid for what they contributed. Such a load of nonsense and I wish those starting out or struggling to get work would refuse to participate in these “competitions” and learn to value what we bring to the table in terms of value.
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Yeah, it’s an overall sad state of affairs really, compared to most other professional industries and professions.
The nature of the tools for design and development allow for both professionals and would be amateurs access to the same tool set in many cases.
That’s not to say someone with ambition and talent can’t self teach themselves a related industry and then develop on a professional level. As many in the various related industries have done just that, and honestly we all have to self educate continuously anyway to keep up.
But over the years since the advent of personal computing coupled with the Internet, along with various software and now cloud offerings, continued cheaper consumable hardware, cameras and phones, etc. The access to these industries has historically gotten easier for those with ambition and desire regardless of talent.
First it was desktop publishing, everyone was a designer. Then everyone was a web designer, now with cameras and phones everyone is a photographer, videographer, etc., and the list goes on.
The entry point to these things has become easily accessible to everyone and constantly continues further with that trend. That’s both good and bad, as it saturates these professional industries and on many levels diminishes the true professionals or those seeking to be. But in some sense its nice that access can be granted to these fields for those individuals with a passion and desire, and offers them vast avenues for potential.
When you couple in global markets and currencies and avenues to do business globally through easy digital means. You then are not only competing with with your clients nephew, or neighbors friend (lol) who says they can make a website, or a corporate brochure, etc. Essentially you are also potentially competing with individuals from various cultures where they can offer services for pennies vs dollars through this global gateway of business.
The saddest part is it all diminishes the overall quality of work within the industries and sadly that has also driven down overall standards over the years. New technologies can also catabolize their own industries vastly as well, conventional offset printing witnessed this when digital printing came about, which likewise changed standards and quality, as just one example.
Overall it can at times be both frustrating and challenging. But in the end pure talent and professionalism still shines though, even if it does require being more selective and cautious with taking on clients whom actually value these attributes within these industries.
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Hee hee hee… now… does that make me a would be amateur… or a WannaBe amateur… or,
or a truly PROFESSIONAL … amateur… dunno!
Yes, Im having fun at nobody elses expense
but all points valid in those two posts. and
I guess I’m truly an Amateur amateur…[quote=“Pinegrow_User, post:6, topic:791”]
But in the end pure talent and professionalism still shines though
[/quote]
and yep! especially when their offerings break/ look crap/have to change something and… they cant.
oh crap.
thats me again.
damn!
@schpengle it’s actually a very good time to be entering the industry, especially when its common for many professionals to rely on click and install themes or templates, so if you focus on self education and learning as you develop websites, you will have an upper hand on those that prefer to use templates and themes.
This is route I’ve gone down, but then I’m good at self education! and all the information you need is freely available on the internet and this was the same when I taught myself how to enter the graphic design industry, thats how I got employment in the industry and I worked with big companies, as in the creative industry it’s about the end result, not about your background.
What I personally love about web development is a few days back I was looking for a plug-in to use for smooth scroll, yet within 30 minutes of searching through google, I started to work on my own and I now have a plug-in that I wrote, so instead of having to rely on others or purchase, its always better to do things yourself and it will help you land big clients or enter the industry (even if you’re in your 50s) not that I’m saying you are, but age doesn’t matter if you know what you’re doing.
I’m 100% in agreement with @Jack_Clarity, the entry requirements to be a web designer/developer are almost non-existent and it is just a matter of deciding what way you want to provide the service, bought themes/plugins or develop your own. Either way I believe you’ll only be limiting yourself if you make little to no effort to try an understand the code behind it all and by doing so you will open up new possibilities. That is where a tool like Pinegrow is invaluable as it allows anyone with an interest to start building websites but with the added advantage that it can also help fledgling designers understand the underlying code.
@Rob it is true and without repeating we have said! if anyone is reading, don’t worry if you fill in the gaps along the way, as this is what I do and often I may know advanced aspects but fall short on certain basic aspects, but I just fill in the gaps as I go along! and hopefully people like @schpengle can do the same.
For example the way I used to do an overlay worked, I never had any issue but I now realise the correct way involves a few extra CSS properties, thats it and then you realise why you should have these extra properties, meaning you apply the same principles when working on your other CSS.
I must admit it can be challenging with self education, as you wonder what you have missed, yet as long as you pick things up (when you need too!) you be fine!
And also don’t be scared of showing your work, this really helps me, especially when I believe I’m doing things correctly, for some reason as soon as my work goes public, I know when I’m made a basic mistake! leading me to quickly find out where I’ve gone wrong.
On that particular note I posted a link in Showcase thread to a is a simple page I put together earlier Pinegrow + Foundation. It’s invaluable to post your work as the feedback can provide you with things you missed or could do better.
Rob, on these two points, I fully agree as it sounded like I had an issue with templates & themes but I’ve started to develop templates (its a massive market) and Pinegrow is the ultimate tool for not just developing templates but learning the underlying code.
We sound like two marketing guys lol anyway, a nice Sunday debate, back to building blocks!
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Well, this is a fun conversation! 
And ive been trying to enter the … industry (read, "hippy Mecca of wandering about, whilst working, from ephemeral ‘homes’ and delivering portals of spiritual wisdom to true beacons of Light (corny huh?) ) for some time now.
Hey! Maybe, just MAYBE… PG 3.0 will be that amazing tool which will make up for my utter lack of knowledge - but keep my enthusiasm bouncing around for long enough to keep trying 
just the way PG 1 and 2 did
now a shiny new interface and YAY!
but its SUmmer, and its shiny, and the sky is blue and and and… I dont want to sit indoors.
SO now, I just need some lovely wifi enabled cafe bars and some determination
OH! that reminds me!
My mate/web partner (whos web server I am allowed to savage at my whim) has FINALLY got our reseller shop to work! er… apparently it works much better if you actually PAY! your account!
WE hadnt paid since 2014! none of us had noticed!
it works much better now.
WE like this system very much
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