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General
21

You still haven’t responded to your thought of restricting income and revenue to the Pinegrow developers, or restricting whom is allowed to use, learn and produce using this tool?

Did you yourself not in fact come from FreewayPro, I would suspect there was a point in time back when you too had to learn much also as a beginner. So its a rather odd perspective you have now towards restricting others or limiting the income potential of Pinegrow.

Perhaps you are also at odds with Pinegrows vision and ideal? Or the industries direction as a whole concerning DesignTools + DevTools?

developers%20%26%20designers

Will designers and developers (even as professionals) have the same skills and understanding coming in to use the app, if that is whom they are targeting ? Are the designers not allowed to learn, should the developers be using visual tools? It seems to me there is reason and room for both and Pinegrow affords both groups opportunity and will continue to do so as it advances.

Matjaz%CC%8C%20-%20a%20better%20way

Side by side. That above statement references this article:

Now onward to the broader perspective …

DevTools%20for%20Designers

Here is the article mentioned:

Here is @matjaz 's comment to the article:

DevTools%20for%20Designers%20Matjaz%CC%8C

So are against the direction of Pinegrow and more designers or perhaps beginners using it, and the increased revenue coming from more users and further advances to the app, which will benefit all users ?

Also know, it’s not just tools like Pinegrow, its browsers themselves heading towards DesignTools + DevTools.

So what exactly are you at odds with, the app or industries direction, designers, visual tools, increased revenue?

I liked the article you posted, but the web has never been like an accredited and licensed doctor in the medical profession, etc. It has been a controlled free-for-all from very its beginnings and remains that way today and beyond. No matter how sophisticated or controlled people wish the web to be, it will remain a working and thriving mess.

Yeah its probably better for people to post on social media what they had for dinner or post a new selfie. You’re right that would be too hard to mention Pinegrow, its benefits and allow more people to become aware of it.

22

Yep - that’s true. So preventing me from the Egg/Chicken image, I try to define my attitude of being a professional:

A professional person, no matter which branch or industry, has attitude and empathy. Attitude towards the craft he or she is about to learn or even already practicing and empathy to the people who are directly influenced by this craft.

So all people being aware, that each single craft has an underlying set of skills, are heavily welcome. And all people ignoring them are excluded -such as simple. Design is a heavy tool, being able to change the world - positive and negative. It’s not a matter of specific people, age, race or any other personal background. We all are not born with the specific “languages” nor have the majority of us ever had this in school. We all have/had to learn the rules. But I simply prefer those, being aware of this and being aware of what they’re doing.

Cheers

Thomas

PS @Pinegrow_User

Yeah - I am coming from FreewayPro. This is what I wrote on 7th July 16 - it even explains me a bit more in detail:

https://freewaytalk.softpress.com/thread/view/169773#m_169773

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23

I have no idea how many copies of Pinegrow are sold each day, but I do know that while it may not be “the job” of existing users to promote/market the software, anyone who has a desire to see this software continue to develop and improve should do whatever they can to refer Pinegrow to fellow website builders who might find it a useful tool.

In the coming months, there are going to be lots of people looking for an alternative to Adobe Muse, since Adobe has decided to end development (and eventually, support) of the product. Muse was never a good program when it came to producing code, but it had a big following of folks who were designers and wanted to build websites without having to deal with code.

I believe that with some more thorough documentation and video tutorials, as well as further development of third-party resources like blocks and plug-ins, Pinegrow could capture a good deal of these ex-Muse users, not only serving as a replacement for Muse, but also as a means for non-coders to learn how to work with code correctly.

In the six months I’ve been working with Pinegrow, my coding skills have improved significantly. I began building sites using a program called Website Realizer, which was basically a visual builder that had a great deal of flexibility in terms of also allowing a person to add their own HTML and CSS to a project. Unfortunately, the program did not support responsive websites (it does now, but in a limited way) so I was forced to find an alternative. This is how I came to be a Pinegrow user. I was already writing a fair amount of code in the other program, so I knew Pinegrow would be the right choice (even though it was a bit daunting at first.)

The more I use Pinegrow, the more comfortable I become working directly with code, but at the same time, I can clearly see the advantages Pinegrow’s visual tools offer. I believe this program has the potential to become an industry-leading piece of software - similar to how Photoshop is the leader in photo editing. I trust that the devs will continue to stay true to their initial vision, no matter how many non-coders become Pinegrow users.

To that end, I will do whatever I can to promote this program to anyone looking for a solution for building websites, regardless of whether they are visual designers, or hardcore coders. The more people who buy Pinegrow, the more resources the devs will have to develop it. It’s a win-win for all.

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24

That gets back to what I previously mentioned …

Like many things in life, learning is a heavy part of the equation whether it’s an apps UI, workflow or the underlying core principles. But hindering people from funding the app or participating in the opportunities it offers or its communities is the wrong approach. There is no need for exclusions or segmentations of users regarding on-boarding and providing opportunity to those whom wish to fund, learn and participate.

A persons own drive, desire to succeed and readiness to learn, along with the ongoing improvements and capabilities offered by the app - or lack of - will continually thin the user base along the way.

Pinegrow can certainly continue to make those users efforts easier for those seeking to take part and reap the benefits of it as a tool for designers and developers alike. It has the opportunity to be a strong player concerning a combination of DesignTools + DevTools in the web tool arena. But a big part of that besides its continued core development is that potential users and the industry as a whole becomes more aware of it, funds it, promote it, etc., so the app can continue to advance and mature from this support and industry awareness.

The web has always been heavily populated with self taught professionals and individuals. Given the benefit of Pinegrow as a learning tool between integrated visual and code approaches, there should be no segmentation of opportunity for those willing to fund it and learn from using it.

That’s a nice story you posted on FreewayTalk. But given Pinegrow is light years beyond what that app and the fact that it offers more proper learning approaches and opportunities. I am still surprised you feel Pinegrow should be a closed community and segmented from potential users regardless of their skill levels. Let whomever desires to experience their own blue/red box awakening like yourself do so.

It has the opportunity and potential to continue to offer more entry points and opportunities for helping both designers and developers learn and build. While not using abstractions and allowing people to learn the underlying source and philosophies correctly. Few proper tools exist in this space of simultaneous visual and code, and many opportunities for further advancements still remain for Pinegrow concerning features. But what good does it do if its hidden from those in the industry that it could potentially help or that could benefit from it?

25

Deja Vu?

Just what does this latest post have to do with the OP’s initial suggestion of a facebook group?
Maybe try and get back on track guys?
:slight_smile:

as for a FB group? Personally I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole, but I get the whole raising awareness thing.
Pinegrow already has twitter and linked in and whatever else.

I don’t touch those either.
I have NO time for reading those things, I have no idea how the devs have the time to post them either.

But more awareness good,
facebook and an un corralled group of random posters (read "Competitors shills* posting negative comments)
bad.

Dictating how much more Pinegrow devs should be doing in order to promote their own products, seems
pretty pointless
as , they are smart people. They know what they want and the numbers and how many they can currently accommodate, rate of growth, release cycles, user base, bug hunting, quality of their product etc and SCALE.
after all, we all bought it… er… or not. :slight_smile: (just in case some of them are here too :slight_smile: )

so, back to the Facebook group, It might be a nice idea for …facebook users.
Im not one, I would have no time for it, this is the forum, I have just been reading and writing in this for over an hour of my sunny day now. so I see no point in a fb group;
But that is just me, if you want to run one, run one. but if you just set It up, let it go feral and it gets taken over by haters or clever imposters, take it back down again.

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26

:roll_eyes: Excerpts and reasons of the original post …

Which is part of the overall core discussion taking place.

27

Just curious, our anonymous forum member, which part of the company do you work for? Your responses indicate that you have a stake in this for the developers, so I’m curious where you are in the food chain, or maybe a friend? Instead of trolling and dropping emotional and personal cues from others’ opinions to instigate further attention to your own viewpoints, and taking others’ posts out of context to pervert into fodder for your own arguments to enhance your standing, perhaps you should consider that it’s actually okay for others to have an opinion and let it go. I don’t believe anyone asked for expanded explanations or your thesis defense, and if you’re going to snip comments, do us all a favor and don’t take them out of context. You don’t have to agree with anyone’s viewpoint here, and no one asked your permission, as we don’t require it. I don’t need your “blessing” for my own comments (which you like to use against others in the form of snippets, out of context, of course) and I’m not debating them with you, they stand on their own and don’t require explanation. No one else’s requires explanation, either. I just got back in here to read others’ views only to see it dominated by you beating others with your own ego because they don’t agree with you. Pro tip: let it go. @Thomas Thanks for your viewpoints, it sounds like we’re both on the same page and have probably had similar experiences on our coding journey to feel the way we do about these very complicated matters. I’m looking forward to hearing what others think about Facebook and its viability for the developers.

28

So it’s wrong that I wanted to voice my personal objection to restricting users and the funding of Pinegrow, the same as yourself except with you having the opposite point of view?

Bit of Irony, that you only like “viewpoints” which are on the “same page” as you, while berating me.

Sorry you see no worth in having open dialog and inclusive discussions beyond your own context or with members with the opposite point of view of your own. But I guess thats needed for the closed community mindset you desire to have and wish to exist within.

29

Gentlemen, this is an interesting topic but I guess it’s time for the discussion to end :slight_smile:
I mean, from the main topic,everyone is free to create an unofficial community on FB or other virtual (or real life) places, to maintain and animate it, whether it’s private or public, users are free to choose to join or not.

Cheers.

4 Likes