Integrate or Innovate

HI guys,

recently, I stumbled upon the following in the Slack chat (Quote):

More PHP Support on Pinegrow, and VSCode & PhpStorm / WebStorm Live Sync. Why? cuz Atom isn’t good idea right know to coding. I love VSCODE fast , and more features smillar to IDE in plugins. Tree View etc… Will be awesome if Pinegrow can make quickly that plugin in VSCode.

It’s my important thing to start doing something all the time. in Pinegrow. VSCode it’s number one in Code Editor right now. Have more and advanced support for many languages. Compare to Atom its faster , and making websites , web app it’s more helpful that Atom. Will be nice to get some information about that plugin for VSCode.

… which had been answered as the follows (Quote):

I agree, Atom isn’t the best right now, it’s too buggy, I’m still having issues that the PG team can’t see to track down with the live link, it’s just not working out great for me. VSCode and PHPStorm/Webstorm (or IntelliJ, depends on the language stack) are the top ones in the industry, as most peers that I speak to are using one of those, and a lot of independents are using Sublime due to raw speed. I think live code support for the top ones would be a big benefit if we’re talking about PG supporting professional developers. I had faith in Atom when it started, but not now.

Well - to be honest: Both the boards, Slack and here are full of this. It made me thinking. And it made me writing the following:

“In all honesty and due to my personal interest: What do you do with all those tools I’ve never heard of. I mean Pinegrow isn’t super complete right now - but I did a couple of websites just using PG with no bigger need of any code editor. I’m just fear of missing super cool things besides HTML, CSS and JS.”

Luckily enough, I got a great answer on my harmless noob (which I am) question from a good Slack Talk-Mate @Marf (who is NOT one of those first quotes) and he already agreed to re-post it here again. So before you participate, please allow him to answer this first.



1 Like

Reposted my comment from the Pinegrow Slack Channel.

Thanks Marvin for reposting your answer. You mentioned there as well being surprised that I never heard of those tools. You shouldn’t be that much surprised, cause my background since starting web-design is creating code visually.

I was especially after the list of features:

I’m used to climb the ladder from bottom to top. So picking Pinegrow was more a logic step ahead towards code and knowledge.

But what I wonder is, what makes people going this step back - from the top of the ladder to say two sprouts down.

I mean - if one is so super cool being able to control such monsters, what is the role of Pinegrow within their workflow?



I think you need to find out and ask yourself the question if you really need an advanced code editor with all those fancy stuff.

There we go…

Each website/project is different. Small or big, simple or advanced, static or dynamic. And there is also a difference between Webdesign and Webdevelopment. They are often mixed or used wrong, but in essence they are 2 different disciplines.

Webdesign is the design, layout and content-structure part, mainly the visual and public client-side parts (HTML,CSS and JS stuff). And Webdevelopment is the dynamic/server-side parts, all the hidden “intelligent, smart and fancy” back-end stuff that is run and processed at the (web)server like PHP for example.

Pinegrow is mainly focused on Webdesign, and has a visual approach (which I like), with visual helpers and visual panels to get things done. Those advanced code editors, like Visual Studio Code / Atom / WebStorm / PhpStorm / etc etc, are more for Webdevelopment and are having a programmers/coding approach. That are 2 different categories. Each have their own set with features and options. Each good for their own purpose and category where they are designed and build for.

In my opinion Pinegrow is outstanding for creating templates, static websites, websites with a little PHP coding, and Wordpress sites. If you building sites/pages in this category, you can build it all entirely with Pinegrow and don’t need an extra fancy advanced code editor. But when you need more advanced features that are more in the category Webdevelopment, then you can maybe better use a code editor for those tasks to complement Pinegrow. Which one to choose is a very personal thing (maybe more later about that).

A little of my own history and experience: In my opinion there was only one program (for my needs) that was good in covering both categories (design and development). That was Macromedia/Adobe Dreamweaver. I used, back in the days, only Dreamweaver for both coding and designing tasks. Then Adobe introduced the Creative Cloud subscriptions, which I refuse to pay because I don’t like to rent software without having a "perpetual fallback license". So I was stuck with my Dreamweaver CS 5 version. Which was for a long time good enough to work with. But with HTML5/CSS3/jQuery/Bootstrap/responsive sites/etc. I was missing good/better support for these new(er) technologies.

So I started about 2 years ago my journey to find a program to replace my old Dreamweaver version. For the coding part there were a lot of good options available, free and payed solutions. I started with Adobe Brackets (free), but the development of Brackets became not so active anymore so I switched to Atom (free) and also purchased a PhpStorm licence.

For the design part (WYSIWYG) with previews, was it harder to find a good replacement. That’s how I discovered Pinegrow. That was a v2 version at that moment. I liked it right away, it was not perfect but I saw the potential it could become. The step from v2 to v3 was a very big step and Pinegrow was starting to becoming an excellent program. Then it was clear for me, that this was the visual tool I need to replace the WYSIWYG/visual part of Dreamweaver that I was looking for. :heart::evergreen_tree::trophy:

A few weeks ago I played a bit with the current/latest Dreamweaver version, to see what it has to offer now a days. It was at a friend of mine, he has a full Adobe CC subscription for the work he does. I must say, I was not impressed by the "responsive design" tools and CSS and bootstrap helpers and panels. A world of difference compared to Pinegrow. Remarkable that a Multi-Million-Billion company, with so much developers, can’t maintain/build a good webdesign/webdevelopment product it was in the past (or maybe it is not an important product anymore for them). And that a small team, the Pinegrow team is only 3 people, is capable to build such an excellent webdesign tool with a lot of powerful and easy to use features.

Back to your initial question. Do you mostly build sites/projects in the Webdesign or Webdevelopment category…??

And when you look at that list with features, that you can find in advanced code editors, I posted. Are there features that you think you need (in your daily workflow). And maybe you don’t need something else and is Pinegrow enough for you to manage and build the sites/projects you want/need. Bigger, more advanced, more "bells and whistles", is not always better or make you more productive.

And it is also important to choose the "toolbox" that fit your knowledge and expertise level (can’t judge that). I think it is better to have that matched. To use you metaphor of the ladder, if your skills/knowledge/experience is at level 2 (just for the example), it doesn’t make sense and is not always smart to pick a difficult program that is level 5. I think it’s better to grow and take it step by step. Than to choose something that is maybe a challenge and can become a struggle to work with. That’s killing for productivity and only gets you irritated and annoyed. And doesn’t make you happy.

@Printninja Just for the protocol:

The “Integrate or Innovate” thread is not dedicated for discussing any f*****g product or company on this planet. It’s mainly dedicated for figuring out which “additions” and stuff Pinegrow needs, becoming the unbeatable.

For this it’s important to know - and that’s exactly what @Marf at the moment delivers - for what and how PG is mainly used. Figuring this out, I think it really helps to be brave enough showing your skills.

I made the experience, that one wants to have the “integration” of VSCode. But exact the same person shows in another thread, not being able to differ between class and ID.

So I’m brave enough showing you my skills - which is as an average representative of it

It’s - to answer Marvin correctly - a simple, static FrontEndDev, nothing special and entirely built with Pinegrow. The technology behind is something that I have to explain in detail. Probably later, running out of time for now.



Thanks for the heads-up. I’ll be sure to steer clear of anything you post going forward.

1 Like

Hi @Printninja - there was certainly no need for deleting your comment. All good! And I’m certainly interested in your thoughts. I appreciated all your comments in the past, so hoping that you share your thoughts as well.



OK - not much reaction here. So let me summarize it myself:

The need of “integrate” functions into Pinegrow comes mostly from the conditions we work on. FrontEnd or BackEnd development. While FrontEnd is mostly covered entirely within Pinegrow itself, BackEnd seems to lack in some cases.

Problem being, that a BackEnd dev does not rely on “Visual Editors” at all. It’s simply not their job. So all this “I need to integrate Editor X” is superfluous!

And a tipp for all Mac users that are on a modern OS:

The bridge between tools like Pinegrow and a Code Editor in my case is CodeKit. It was the best invest in my life in the past. I’ll wrap this in a small “get-the-popcorn-ready” screencast when I find the time for it. It’ll show what I mean with “Innovate”.

And those under you being able to read between the lines - you can probably guess what my expectations for a future version of Pinegrow really is. It will innovate an excellent app. More than you could think of right now.



I think @matjaz says it best regarding the basic philosophy.

I’m not against any philosophy of PG-Towers at all - and I never will be. I’m simply questioning “workflows”, cause I don’t think, that they’re required regarding the skills of the majority of this board - that’s all.



That seems like rather broad assumptions.

Plus it appears that not many users even post on the Forum or Slack for that matter. Unless the Pinegrow user base is as small as these two entities combined concerning the number of people posting?

Looking forward to learn more about your point of view and expectations though.