Starting a NON-responsive blank webpage, HTML or Bootstrap?


I would agree in most cases a more Vanilla development approach is all that is needed. I still stand by my comment above:

( ^ I am not referring to anyone on the forum however, just speaking in general terms :wink: so relax people )

@jack you bring up a good point concerning bloat elsewhere with images and added resources.

The lack of proper image compression, linting, etc., etc., wastes a tremendous amount of both time and bandwidth for users everyday, when you add it all up over time the calculated spoilage is a shame to all of us. As we could all do better as designers and developers, I am sure it holds true for most all of us.

@rob, just curious, what aspects of the frameworks do you rely upon mostly?

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Certainly creating your own grid-system is kind of reinventing the wheel over and over again. But there is one thing that could be probably considered as well:

“Waiting on developers and authors” - Or “Depending on them”. Just to name flex-box or css grid layout. I’d like to understand both (or skip them) and I’d like to increase my knowledge the best I can. Currently it is even unsure if Pinegrow V3 release depends on Bootstrap 4 release (however I don’t think that it is the case).

Whatever it is:

I’d like to strengthen the position of “working from scratch in Pinegrow!” And I think there is enough room for doing so. In Freeway we never had any chance using a framework at all. So sweet memories might come into game as well.

I adopted Pinegrow to substitute FreewayPro as my tool of creating the mark-up. And it is sensational cool, an outstanding tool - probably one of my best decision ever.

Bloated stuff namely images are my concern as well. I can do whatever I want: My hero-images are rarely beyond 100k. Generated out of PS -> running CodeKit’s internal image compression on them as part of my workflow is what I do. Fortunately, images are loaded asynchronously - they don’t block rendering the page. But it is a waste anyway.

Last summer I read Scott Jehl’s “Responsible Responsive Design” (A Book Apart) and there, he introduced the idea of “Performance Budget”.

An excerpt:

" … That said, the basic idea is sound: a performance budget is a number, or set of numbers, used as a guideline for whether you can afford a particular code addition to a codebase, or whether an existing site’s performance needs to improve. These numbers can represent page transfer weight (“page should weigh no more than X kilobytes and make no more than Y requests”), or perceived load time (“page should be usable in X seconds or less”) …"



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If you asked me what I would miss if I had to design/build a website without a framework, it would be Responsive grid/menu - that is it.

Ease of use and if I wanted too, I could look at other options but why should I? and that isn’t an aggressive question! (so don’t worry mate!) more, what do I gain by looking at other options?

I already design mainly using plain HTML/CSS, so if I drop bootstrap and foundation, all I’m doing is taking my focus elsewhere when it would be silly to ignore the popularity of bootstrap.

Say for examplle I want to start selling templates online, it’s either bootstrap or wordpress and I dislike wordpress, yet I’m considering upgrading, just so I can build wordpress themes.

It always comes back to the question “why should I?” - if there is ever a valid reason then I will move away from frameworks, but currently there is no reason at all!

:wink: Ok.

Well regardless, perhaps much like your eventual acceptance and then excitement regarding Foundation, perhaps there is a chance to likewise see the benefits of other approaches as well in the future. It’s perhaps not as drastic of an undertaking as you may expect.

:thumbsup: You can never go wrong with this approach.

@Thomas PS: I quickly passed by the FreewayPro forum yesterday and saw a user posted concerning an email they received about a forthcoming announcement regarding SoftPress and FreewayPro. Did you receive such an email also? I found that to be interesting, and I am curious what may occur in the near future? If you hadn’t seen it I thought you may find it interesting.

yep - recognized this post, too. I haven’t received such an email, being in touch with Joe over years though.
Obviously, I’m not as prominent as the guy getting it (sounds a bit like fake-news (where’s the button?).

Seriously spoken, there will be certainly the time of a final decision or result. I don’t expect bigger surprises.



:wink: OK

Foundation is just a framework, same as Bootstrap, the real “excitement” is over CSS design and HTML5. I started using Materialize last week, what do you think happened? It’s just a framework.

I improve my knowledge when there is a need for that knowledge, otherwise IMO you become one of these people that wants to be knowledgeable regarding every aspect but you can’t master one area.

I can build three websites, upload three websites and ask you, which one is Foundation, which one is Bootstrap and which one is Materialize - now without viewing the source code it would just be a guess, unless I used out-of the-box components (which I rarely do) as I have my own customised version of each framework.

Now PInegrow_User I would ask you to upload some of your work, but you haven’t, ever! :wink: and I would actually like to see your work, if you’re using your own framework or an alternative and that’s the same to anyone, show us a reason to change and me and @Rob may consider changing lol

A lot of that now days. :wink:

One comment from that discussion

“Yeah Bootstrap is good for prototyping and other things, but its get so problematic when you try to customise it heavily.”

I don’t find it problematic to customise Bootstrap or Foundation? I’m not running into the same problems others are, problems that drive them to building their own framework, but I always say, do what suits you, don’t follow others.

Well I could likewise state that little has been proven for the necessity of using a framework if all you need is a responsive grid and a menu, as you put it “that is it”, regarding all you need from a framework.

So I would have little desire to try to convince others, especially those staunch against things already. You will however continue to arrive at new ideas, just as you continue to do so through your own continued discoveries and explorations. Plenty of debates already abound, I am not seeking to start a new one. I thought my previous response was relatively neutral and encouraging, perhaps not.


Yeah of course, I thought this as I was typing but what about the features already integrated within PInegrow and software we both use, such as bootstrap studio and bootstrap blocks? I was looking through my library in bootstrap studio and being able to casually drop these blocks into a page, it tips the balance in favour of bootstrap for certain websites.

Plenty of debates already abound, I am not seeking to start a new one. I thought my previous response was relatively neutral and encouraging, perhaps not.

It’s just interesting hearing from posters who contribute to the forum as your knowledge of the subject may be greater than others, and I am actually interested in seeing your work or hearing your views and sorry if it came across as aggressive but we all have different posting styles!

No worries, good discussion.

Obviously there are pros and cons to all points of views, methods and even opinions. So in the end it’s up the each developer/designer to weigh those costs and benefits on a per project and per client basis. Then arriving at those decisions based on the merits they themselves determine, which can be vast and vary greatly.

If I have time and the desire I will put forth a comprehensive perspective of my present point of view. But in the end honestly, I suspect we all come to our own continuous conclusions anyway, as the industry constantly advances around us.

Thus the learning, discovery and exploration never seems to cease.

At first I thought the original poster was a my level so I was eager to see what others said. Then I realized he had skills beyond my own at this moment and started to lose focus.
What people often fail to realize is that their interest level is relative to a point just above their skill level. The brain wants to grow but not explode.

When I read what to me is currently gibberish I quickly pass it by until I find that sweet spot of helpful consideration that is found by proper reference to words that Google can find. That’s not specifically thoughtful SEO but simply adding relevant words and phrases so I can find the gem.

I will never be a brainiac coder or dream in CSS but Pinegrow at least lets me develop sites that don’t need to be rewritten every five years or less. I started in Frontpage, went to Dreamweaver, dabbled in Xara Designer and now I have something powerful that drives me crazy but eventually gives me more than I expected.

I need it now more than ever since Google is punishing me for have a site that is not responsive for mobile use. Having to create a .mobi site on top of it all would take longer than I have to live.


Well, after following these posts on Pinegrow and knowing what I need to get done if using a web editor, I realized that Pinegrow is just too primitive at this time for me to use. I KNOW what I want the website to look like and do and I actually need a web editor to do the coding for me.

When I found out how many steps and the hassle it is just to change the background color to a webpage, I knew that Pinegrow needs a lot of work before it can be something I would be willing to use. Rather than spending my very hard earned money on a program I simply can not use, I think I will be spending the money on Sparkle instead.

I need a web editing program that does the coding for me, rather than me doing the coding for it.

Excellent decision - or alternative, you could keep Freeway up (Phoenix-like as recently announced)



Hi @Thomas Thomas,

Does this exceed what you expected that they are making a comeback, are you surprised with the announcement?

Now that can continue further it seems. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Actually it sounds like you never were really looking for a “web editor” as traditionally intended, but rather more of a GUI based WYSIWYG designer instead.

Perhaps by “primitive” you instead meant “advanced” for your current knowledge given your claim to “know so little of the actual coding” after 16 years. Sure the current Pinegrow UI/UX does not easily afford those with certain types of thinking to comprehend the workflow easily, especially when coupled with the user needing to know CSS, HTML, etc.,

But with Pinegrow v3 that may be somewhat eased for users with the new features (drag/drop), new UI, etc. So keep an eye out for Pinegrow v3 and what it potentially brings. Even if it would someday help you with your HTML/CSS/etc., learning process, or you actually need a “web editor” in the future.

Let us know how you like Sparkle if you indeed go that route. Perhaps with Freeways rebirth you can continue down that path as well.

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That’s an interesting question indeed.

To be honest, a comeback is the last thing I’ve expected ever. So I’m very surprised.
It seems, that they plan a minor upgrade (bug fix) first. FreewayPro is, as is at the end of its possibilities of maintenance and developing. It needs to be re-written from the very first line. But this will happen - and I’m certainly anxious to know how and when. We’ll see.

Well - basically, I see myself in a comfortable situation. Pinegrow is on top of what I did all those years before. It allows me doing things which were impossible before. I’m a web designer - I don’t need necessarily applications doing the magic.

The ideal application would be a consequent mixture of them both - Pinegrow and FreewayPro. An application which allows amateurs (as you) taking a lil bit part in a profession you don’t really understand and as well featuring the experts and pros evolving the web and making it a better a place every day.



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OMG!!! YES!!!

I had no idea until I saw this post! I am saved! Hell, friggin’ YES!!! Now to learn Adobe’s Animate CC! I think learning Animate would far more useful to me than learning code.

Now I see no need to purchase Sparkle and so the Softpress announcement came just in time! Yes!

I will be keeping an eye out on Pinegrow though and this forum.

Thanks to everyone here!


I get the felling the Freeway people are excited. :wink:

With Animate, much like Flash before it, the true power and capabilities are in ones ability to leverage code. You may also be interested in Tumult Hype if you are not yet familiar with it.