Know Nothing NetObjects User Looking for the VERY BASICS

I would like to know some very basic steps please. I wish to learn, but I must be able to use the program as I learn. How do I store and where do I store assets for potential use? Are higher resolution photos automatically reduced in resolution and file size when placed into a page? How do I substitute photos in an established page? May I select a template that uses bootstrap and not have to worry about making sure photos and headings are all conforming to bootstrap? Is there a simple tutorial for basic startup as most I have tried to use are part of a long process of total education? I need to get something up and published, which I can then learn from Pinegrow and improve over time. If this is not possible, I must select another program as the need is to get a basic site up and running.

netobjects was my previous webdesign application and i had zero html skills prior to taking up PG.

the transition was not without effort, but PG does a very good job of making what little you need to learn about web development accessible and easy to play with.

the ONE feature i miss the most is the site org chart where you could drag and link pages in a graphical environment… PG has nothing like that.

i recommend the scrimba bootcamp course for a good into to html and css without having to rely on a framework like bootstrap or delv into javascript at all. They also offer a slew of free courses on html and css to get you started … i followed the lessons along using PG to learn where all the features were. PG also is really pretty good at CSS grid which is super powerful at arranging elements on the page.

that said, if you are looking for more of a graphical drag and drop, you might want to give Bootstrap Studio a look. It’s more like netobjects and comes with it’s own limitations.

the thing about netobjects (like a lot of these apps) is they stamp their own proprietary code onto the html which makes it nearly impossible to maintain outside of the app.

PG (and to a lesser extent BS studio) create clean html and css without any proprietary added junk. The down side is you have to find your own nav menus, and display widgets (or build your own, which is what i ended up doing).

PG is a powerful tool and once you have a basic understanding of html and css, it can be a breeze to build exactly what you want. With the inclusion of the bootstrap framework inside PG, building websites using bootstrap is less work than building from scratch.

so in summary, if you want drag and drop functionality, PG is probably not the best choice (BS Studio would be better), but if you are willing to learn the basics of html and css then PG opens up the creative landscape to design what you envision.

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Thank you.

I will make an attempt, but I need to replace the existing Website as quickly as possible. I have no idea what you feel is the necessary learning period to be able to make a small multi page website using Pinegrow. How about giving me a hint. The same basic explanations might be found from Dreamweaver too.

So far, I am having difficulty just trying to make a couple of pages. The tutorials are not much help. They do not start from the beginning of a web site and do not show even how to move on to a second page in a website. Maybe this program is not as easy to use as you advertise. I am sorry too because the features you mention in the final product are what I am looking for, but with poor explanations how to use the product from start of a new project or template, it is very difficult to learn the basics and begin, then continue to learn more and improving as you go. I would think this might be a good way to sell more of this program too. Telling people to go elsewhere isn’t the best indication satisfaction is one of the developers goals in creating the product.

I will check back after making an attempt to “learn the basics” and continue. One of the actual basics might be a clearer tutorial starting with a new project, even using a template, without an accent in English too.

Tom

there are no preset templates for a webpage of website, however you can import an existing webpage and start modifying it from there.

is the current website anything like what you envision? have you tried importing into PG?

what are the needs for this website, just a static set of pages or will need to have dynamic features like a database or shopping cart?

this 4hr course covers a lot of the entry level language you will need to be familiar with

it does not cover multi page websites but simply copying the page and making changes to the parts you need for subsequent pages is a brute force approach… you are going to need to have the PG pro version tho.

are you currently using the evaluation version?

Thank you for your attention.

I used NetObjects Fusion for a decade or more. There was no support and features were growing more limited so web sites became dater or old looking. I have never seen a web site with only one page, like an endless scrolling down the page, all sites I used had a title page and links on the title page to additional pages and subjects within the website.

As you noted, NetObjects presents problems in trying to simply transfer a website to another program. Since I will be starting all over and new again, I thought to break our Farm web site into one for the farm and one for camping, which seems popular lately. The camping web site should be rather simple, as a host farm page. It is largely pictures and text information with a link to where you can register to visit. This is a third party web site who checks out potential visitors before allowing them to visit.

I thought the host farm site would be easy to start using a new site developer program, but I cannot even see how you create or provide links to additional pages within a created Pinegrow web site. Your tutorials seem to show a single page only.

I find your program quite advanced and it would be most useful if you had a basic tutorial that demonstrated how to create a multi-page website providing adjustments automatically for computer, tablet and cell phone viewing. Something where the basic properties for the pages of the website are basically the same for the entire collection of related and linked pages.

Do you feel taking this course will provide that knowledge and ability for Pinegrow? Is there no way with Pinegrow to keep track of related daughter pages on a website once the title page is created?

Thank you again for your time. You have been most generous. This is very important to me, but I understand how it pales in the face of mass sales for you and your company.

Tom

My arc is the same as yours, used NetObject for my static website, but it was looking dated and it was difficult to maintain. When my computer crashed and i looked at re-installing NetObjects, it seems they were way behind the curve compared to other offerings in a similar vein.

After much evaluation and comparing i settled on PG because i didn’t want to have to deal with proprietary code again, and this also kept me away from bootstrap as it tends to have it’s own way of doing things. i’m sure it’s fine if you want to learn it, but learning html and css was enough for me to bite off.

i developed my webpage from scratch by learning from the tutorial above and by examining snippets of code found searching for things like navigation and modal to see how others were doing them. i also went and purchased the bootcamp tutorial from scrimba because it introduced multi page design, which was my aim. it was worth the price then $50 i think.

the links to other pages are really just the same as links to other websites and putting them in a list and displaying them across rather than down is not that complicated once you know the rules. what NetObjects did was wrap all the code up in their own specific code and scripts so it was impossible to do anything with outside of their program. with PG, i don’t need to worry about that… all my stuff is perfectly readable using PG or any text editor.

PG does have a Master Page feature where you can have the look&feel of your website defined by the master page and then just edit selected bits from page to page as you change content.

There’s a tutorial on the PG site about how to do that, but found just playing with it on my own site helped my understand of the in’s and out’s.

i highly recommend the free tutorial above and also build everything they do in the course in PG as you go… not only will it reinforce what you are learning but it will give you an appreciation for how well PG helps you build and maintain your code.

if after that short course, you don’t feel that writing your own code is what you want to do, then i would direct you toward the Bootstrap Studio product as probably the next best thing.

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Hi again,

I am overwhelmed by the volume and specific minute details seen as necessary to use Pinegrow. I would like to set up a master page via a template and apply those details to the website of many pages. I do not see this mentioned yet. I still do not see how you can link a description of information on the home or title page to details on additional pages contained within the web site. There is also not way to follow created pages and their relationships to each other on a site should the site have many pages of detailed information. This seems to be something one must keep notes and diagrams on paper to remember as I cannot see any way to follow this using the program ( should I find out how additional pages are created after the first site home page).

Look at the pinepoems page. Each of the small paragraphs, should one want, should be linkable to details held on other pages in the web site. By reading such a paragraph and then clicking on it an associated internal link should be able to take you to a full page of related information. Do you understand? I see no way to have such relationships in what I have read thus far in the tutorials. I see no way to have internal and external links. The tutorials also leave out details in explanations and instructions necessary to a novice for full understanding and at times the tutorials refer to things by different names and descriptions than the actual title of the detail used in the Pinegrow program. I suspect also the tutorials were created for a slightly different version of Pinegrow than the current one.

I do not wish to become an expert in the use of HTML to use this program. The very exacting syntax Pinegrow seems to require in doing simple tasks in the tutorial needs a reference text to remember them all. I thought Pinegrow wrote the HTML for the user in creating his website so the author did not need to know all these details even if able to see the programming language in detail created as he prepares web pages. However, the tutorials actually make one feel they need to know HTML syntax and abbreviations as well as well as even the spacing of these in creating a page for web exhibition.

Is there an aid to uploading Pinegrow created web material to one’s domain server? Is a specific server type required (will a unix server be o.k? Could you tell me where this information may be found? I cannot find it.

I want very much to use Pinegrow, but I do not wish to become a graduate knowing HTML syntax, and all the CSS and bootstrap rules and finer details. Is this possible using Pinegrow? Do you simply show how to use HTML directly in tutorials for those who wish to use it, but not as a necessity to use this program?

I am sorry to so filled with questions, but the program does what we want to do (I think) it just sets about illustrating how to do it for professional people using these programming languages professionally every day. Is there a more simplified set of instructions limiting the details in wording, syntax and spacing of HTML for those that are not going to make professional edits using the languages noted? Mixing the two probably makes it look to simplistic to the professional and too complicated for the novice.

Thank you so much for your help and participation.

Tom

Hi,

Bootstrap Studio does not allow you to develop a complete web site.

I have built dozens of “complete web sites” with Bootstrap Studio. I’ve also built many sites with Pinegrow. Both programs allow you to build virtually any kind of site you want (at least front-end-wise.) Back-end is a different story.

Neither of these programs are particularly well-suited to a novice who understands nothing about HTML, CSS or JS. Of the two, Bootstrap Studio is probably easier for a beginner to get into. It’s not nearly as powerful a program as Pinegrow, and has few fewer features, but it is a bit easier in terms of just dragging and dropping components on to the page and then styling them. It doesn’t require any real knowledge of HTML, but it helps. But you will need to understand how CSS rules work to build a site correctly.

To build a complete multi-page website in either program, with links and anchors to parts in other pages is not rocket science, but it does require you to at least understand the general idea behind the way that these things work.

If you are looking for a very simple website builder that automates virtually everything, constrains your options, walks you through the process step-by-step, and limits your creativity, then you might be better off with a template-based online builder like Weebly or Wix (or even Webflow.) These are programs that make it easier to add pages, link elements, insert content, and make changes without “breaking” things, but they’re also going to limit you in how much you can actually modify the site to your liking.

Building a multi-page, fully responsive, feature-rich website is not a simple undertaking. There is a learning curve involved. It took me a solid two years of teaching myself before I felt I fully had a grasp of HTML, CSS, JS, and how to just sit down and put a site together completely from scratch (and I do this for a living!)

Programs like Pinegrow and Bootstrap studio basically make the process much easier by eliminating a lot of the tedious, repetitive work that would normally have to be done by hand-coding. They also give you a better idea of how the page is coming together because you can see your changes in real-time. But either way, understanding the underlying technologies of HTML, CSS and JS is probably going to make your life a lot easier (especially considering that neither program is especially well documented.)

I would recommend you spend some time at https://www.w3schools.com/ familiarizing yourself with the basics of how web pages work… tags, classes, Id’s, attributes, rules, etc… and then come back and look at the program again. You should find it makes more sense.

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Well, I am afraid that this is where. you going to be heading if you want to create, maintainable websites, that you and others can continue to work on, with any programs.

It reads like you are confusing the required beginners level of knowledge of HTML and CSS and JS to Get basic things done to create a web page, with The required minimum knowledge of Pinegrow, in order to get good things done quickly in the program.

Yes, you can get things done quickly with Pinegrow - if you learn HOW to use it.
Yes, you can get basic things done with plain html and css , if you learn the basic code skill.
Yes, you can get more complicated things done, if. you learn the more complicated things in either way.

I have to edit some videos at the moment.
I would like to get awesome results, with powerful programs to get a good result.
but
It’s not going to happen if I dont learn how to use THE PROGRAM, or if I dont know HOW TO APPLY Effects… and tweeting and other VIDEO principles.

So , your right there are different interfaces in a lot of the tutorials and this can really complicate the issues, BUT look at them.
There are lots.
LEARN SOME basic html and css and HOW they work, as they are BASIC. Not the complicated things, just learn some basics, like the links questions for paragraphs etc.

It’s like me being in a foreign country, trying to order coffee.
If I havnet learnt enough bad, pigeon English to say Coffee , Please, one, Thank you
then I am not going ot get a coffee, and yes, it feels really weird the first few times, making funny sounds and having no idea what is said back but HEY! I get a coffee.

It sounds like this is where your at.

Dont confuse having a basic fluency in the program
with a basic Fluency in the Web Languages.

You can drag things around, and create a website, awesome.
But you will have to LEARN how to use it to edit these things.
If you dont know anything about the languages of the web, and have no desire too, then you will have ot learn how to do everything in the interface.
BUT, if you have no idea about the web languages, or the PRIINCIPLES ABOUT HOW THEY WORK… then you may not have any idea where to look, in order to change things.

yep, a great idea! do it. I do.

it should be part of your website PLAN… which you do first,
Right?
You PLAN , then create?

if you dont plan, then WHAT are you creating?
are you randomly just creating pages… out of ideas?
if so, try paper first :slight_smile:
Or mind mapping tools.
I use these. Plenty of free ones.

… this is just creating a link.

That is all.
this is the principle.
Your text paragraph is turned into the Link,
the full body of text is the target.

it can be on the same page, or a different page.
2020-02-20_01-46-10

so you now know that you are looking for a link - so you could use the search box in pinegrow and type in LINK.
you will then find it under

Text/Plain HTML
and drag and drop it.
2020-02-20_01-47-39

then click the T in the blue menu bar which appears, at the beginning and write in your short text

then type in where you want it to go to find the full text2020-02-20_01-51-32

or click here and navigate to it on your computer.

. I could go on indefinitely here.
but there are the old documentation and the new ones

https://pinegrow.com/docs/pages/pages.html. old
and the new.

but maybe you should look at this first

because in order for you create good websites,
you should really have some idea about code,
or have a program that does ALL that stuff for you without making you think of this thing,
but EVEN THEN… you need ot know THE PRINCIPLES of just what it is you would LIKE to do and HOW that is done on a website, in order to get it done.

SO either understand the principles and learn the program,
or learn the code and the principles and the code.

I cant make this video, because I dont know the stuff I need ot know, and cant use the complicated program!

so, have. a think if this tool is good for you, and see just what it is you are prepared to learn first.

either way, good luck and I hope you have some fun and a bit of learning adventure either way.

Also, this is a forum, which is written all over by fellow app users :slight_smile: and sometimes the dev.
we are not all devs :slight_smile: there are only 4 of them (5 including the dog…)

So we are just trying to be helpful unless it is one of the 2 devs on here (@matjaz and @Emmanuel) then you will be speaking to us :slight_smile: - just other people like you

I’m sorry, it’s difficult… like me you are missing the proprietary work NetObjects did in the background to present you with a WYSIWYG graphical interface.

The interface PG presents to you is a different animal in that it doesn’t do all that background work for you, what it DOES do is present the means by which you can do that background work yourself without resorting to editing code by hand. It will take care of all the syntax and spacing in the code so that it works as it should an it won’t let you make errors that can cause the whole thing to blow up, which is VERY easy to do when you are coding by hand.

So you have dropped down into a world where hard core coders are finding a massively useful tool for them, but from your perspective is still like being dropped into the cockpit of an airliner.

i understand.

the good news is learning what you need to learn about html and css in order to make a pretty decent webpage (if i do say so myself, you can take a look at putpeopleoverprofit.org) is not out of this world difficult… if i can do it, anyone can.

but you are going to need to put in the work… there’s no way around it.

that said, there are other alternatives to NetObject which follow the same sort of proprietary wrapper approach such as mobirise, WebsiteX5 or WYSIWYG web editor… but i was in your shoes less than a year ago and i ended up here with PG.

if you don’t mind leaving your work on the “cloud” then one of the on-line web building sites are all the rage… personally, i want my work right here on my desk where i know i can get to it, not locked up in someone else’s cloud.

what it comes down to is how important to you is control over this website and how it looks? if you are willing to live with constraints then one of the online tools may be a good fit, or the desktop apps i mentioned above.

how important is responsive webpage design to your needs, are a lot of your users going to be viewing your site on a phone or tablet?

if you want to build a responsive website and have it look the way you want it, then you are going to need to understand how html and css work, and that will mean PG is a better fit, once you learn the basics.

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I am grateful for the insight and information. I am in a hard spot here. I simply cannot continue with NetObjects, but honestly do not have two years to get something back up. I am going to try to start something by “cheating” it together and hope to educate myself as time passes so it can be improved. Perhaps starting with templates at first.

I wish to thank you for your comments and suggestions. Since there will be a learning curve, I suppose it is best to put off the purchase of Pinegrow until I am better educated. That is because I probably would not be able to use if for many months and updates are only good for the first year upon purchase. I hope to be able to purchase in 4 or 5 months. I will get something together using one of the other programs people have mentioned prior to this time. All the programs like to show off their ability to edit the programming language(s) in their instruction and demo materials. This is just the opposite of what I need to get something started. Someone will take a great program like Pinegrow someday and make it simple for the idiots like me to use initially with perhaps less dazzle, but initial utility, and have the details in it too for the more professional. It would attract a person to the product as they initially start, yet provide for them to grow into the more professional aspects over time. I would think this could attract more business and actually keep it more loyally as users grow into the program and become truly comfortable with it.

Again thank you to all. It was nice to find people willing to help a stranger. Something quite unusual in this modern world of crocodiles and other predators.

Tom McCaffrey

2 Likes

This was the first program I ever bought (after coming from GoDaddy’s Website Tonight online builder.) It’s a great piece of software, and I built dozens of sites with it, but the developer didn’t update it fast enough when responsive design caught on, and I had to leave it. Fast forward three years and he finally released a version that does responsive sites. I haven’t looked at the program recently, but you might want to take a look at it.

https://www.websiterealizer.com/

Also, the very first responsive site I built http://brigadepropertymanagement.com/ was with Pinegrow using Bootstrap 3.x and the programs built in “blocks.” Using the Bootstrap blocks made building my first site a lot easier. Unfortunately, we’ve since evolved into Bootstrap 4, so I would not recommend using BS 3.x to build a new site now, and the PG devs never created updated 'blocks" that work with Bootstrap 4 (however there are many free BS 4.x. blocks available here, which could potentially make using the Pinegrow program a lot easier for you https://pluginsforpinegrow.com/ )

(PS - I would stay FAR, FAR away from WYSIWYG web builder. It’s really a crappy program that does very non-standards-compliant things to achieve its responsive designs. Plus, the developer is a thin-skinned cry baby who refuses to take any sort of professional advice. For example, he forces you to work with text in predefined sizes of “points” (similar to Microsoft Word) and refuses to allow you to use pixels or ems, rems, etc, even though his software actually converts the points to pixels in the code.)

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whew, i dodged a bullet by skipping that WYSIWYG one then… i found it clunky and constraining and only spent about an hour with it.

thanks for the insight.

This is a link to a tutorial i’ve posted aimed at the user coming from a program such as NetObjects but overwhelmed by the complexity of PG.

By the end of the 3 parts, you will have a working 2 page website (without styling).

It should give you enough of a taste for the power of PG that you will want to go deeper down the rabbit hole.