Pinegrow Community Support Forum

*Word Style* Doc to WebSite builder, free for 3 days

#1

And here go!

If you would like to enter a world of CLEAN CODE! HONEST sort of hell,
Or, have friends who know you do website stuff and, well would like one, but aren’t that clever,
AND, want free hosting (for 150MB)
(and free 3rd level domain)

AND…run windows,
check this out

Give it to them for xmas, (or your kids) then run around screaming, when they give you the code to fix
In your Proper code editor thing (Pinegrow :slight_smile: )

… then, if they get bitten by the bug, get them PineGrow instead :slight_smile:
At least you may then know that they will actually use it.

…I mean, what is NOT to like about this concept?
O:-)

especially as THIS is their product page
https://sanwhole.com/Products/VolePageShare

(Update! after EXTENSIVE RESEARCH!.. HI! @printninja)
we can confirm (well, he can) that this page ONLY contains
1001 errors!
Nice number!
Kinda binary,

and THIS FANTASTIC OFFERING is their website…

https://sanwhole.com

AAAAAAAAAAaaaaaargh!!!

Bring back the 90’s!
Oh, I just have…

NB, its free (as are dog turds on the side of the footpath, if you would like one… )
But, it does offer the whole package for getting started,
for 3 days, so check it out! and get it in the mix and give it to your friends for xmas :slight_smile:

… then give them Pinegrow… or they may bury you in the garden.
Along with that dog turd you told them to take home , weirdo.

ps, My favourite feature, though is this…

YES! now YOU TOO… can now TRULY …

MANGE your own Massive website!

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/mange

Personally… I have managed to Mange quite a few websites over the years… I need no app
and pinegrow just WONT let me mange them… it keeps telling me my code contains errors!
And highlighting them.

now WHERE is the challenge in that

And I just opened up the page in Pinegrow, My eyes are still kind of hurting, but. Ive seen worse code,
but,
TABLE LAYOUTS…

(tables are for data, NOT content)

Then, right at the end… BOOTSTRAP!
WAH>


?

SO why not all the way through?

A Work IN Progress App?
Interesting, still its free for a short while, so play with it and send them some lurve…
…or simply *Mange your own website for free :slight_smile:

and just SOME…inline styles…some, just a few like…

N.B… I think we need a Humorous channel…just for me…
Since I’m far funnier (in my own head) Than I am productive :slight_smile:

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#2

This post is fantastic. It reminds me of some of the ones I’ve been making on Facebook where I’ve been getting all these new Muse “replacement” builders popping up in my feed, claiming to be the second coming. The first thing I do is go to their home pages and check their code and SEO, then come back to Facebook and post my findings. Needless to say, I’m not winning friends.

1 Like
#3

It’s so good to be appreciated :slight_smile:

Yes, there’s a fair few apps out that say they’re rather good. but then eat you alive.
I still remember Macaw. Ahead of its time, and held back by the quantum shift in what it offered and what it could actually do without breaking/falling apart.

That is probably the way things will go.

We have A.I., Big data analaysis, Self learning machines and yet, we cant get an environment that produces code for computers to read that is also clean for humans to read.
bizarre.

One day, all this web design/coding, will have largely gone.
As was the promise with so many web programs back in the day (Looking at YOU Front-page!)

I mean how many people do you know who create their office documents with Latex
and how many use M.S. Office…

How hard can it be?
I mean, REALLY?

WYSIWYG, is held back by …by… by… Dunno! Interesting concept.
It should be as simple as this FINE APP mentioned here makes it out to be.
And to some degree this suffices.

create content,
Put it on a server
Let the world see it

… I was taught that content is king

Yet, when it is supposed to be PRESENTED, Interpreted, conveyed, by technology,
its as though the human concepts and principles that content seeks to present,
play second fiddle to how it is conveyed.

Odd times indeed.

Computers should learn OUR Semantic speech and text and concepts,
not us theirs! (For the layman to use, not the software architect who is creating the interpretive programs of course.)

THE ENTIRE Internet is JUST content
That’s it! that’s all.
So, if you can create content, you should be godlike, However,
Just to keep us in our place
we are now told that TECHNOLOGY that presides over this content is king?
REALLY?
Yep, have to write for search engines (Eh? Did Mary Shelley do that for Frankenstein? I think not)

And give this weird invisible markup semantic meaning
And format it for screen readers … make it Accessible
…oh, and of COURSE … responsive!
SO people can view it on their toaster, or the dark side of the moon, via a special satellite linked plasma projector… oh haven’t you heard of those? no?
well! then you REALLY shouldn’t be writing for the Internet as your simply far to technologically backward!

but but but… I just wanted to WRITE… you know. WORDS and stuff…

So the Technologists maintain their strangle hold… on creativity. Gah!
(oh well, good luck on that one. …there are always Programs like VOLE!..to … bring back the 90’s!)

#4

You think it’s rough now? At least on the web we’re (mostly) designing in 2D. Wait until VR and AR become ubiquitous, and everything has to be designed in 3D, with not just up-down and left-right, but also inward and outward. Content may be kind, but UI and UX are equally important. It’s going to take an entire new level of software, not to mention way of thinking, to code for a three-dimensional, augmented reality.

But the thing is, if we ever do design tech that learns our semantic ways, it will render us all obsolete in very short order.

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#5

umm, been there, done that :slight_smile:

Do you remember VRML?
The Next big thing , that never was?

The funny thing is, I’m STILL Looking or a way to replicate that experience! I think its a fantastic idea, to move though a virtual space, the same way we do through a physical one, in order to navigate/view things.

Here you go, for you young guys :slight_smile:

…and if you want to go wild and crazy with this stuff…

TADA!!

https://www.x3dom.org

however, I DID once see an awesome 3d animation of a barrel…in a room on the web… done totally with CSS>

lets see if I can find it again… YES!!!

Damn, I’m good.
I first saw this a few years ago and it sort of blew my (tiny) mind (as would a good sneeze.)
but, check this out for fun and education.

Remember kids, DO try this at home.

Anyway< this post has now gone completely off Pisté but, its still interesting.
The first free at the moment app, brought up the whole

disempower the creatives by barring them from sharing their ideas and information, with a technological barrier

which KIND OF… isn’t ACTUALLY IMPORTANT to the content really, is it?
I too look at the output of the program and run screaming to wash my eyes out, however, that’s because I TOO have bought into the whole CORRECT way of creating a website.

But really, for creative types to HAVE TO learn to code , when that is soooo not in their make up, just in order to express their ideas, is akin to Mechanics having to be Honour student level metallurgists, before they are allowed to pick up a spanner (and know JUST HOW IT IS MADE in order to create yet another GREAT TOOL.) -before they are allowed to follow their passion and WORK ON YOUR CAR! or THIER OWN.

We would all be waiting at bus stops, with our cars broken to down, scattered all over the place like seagull poo if that was the case.

So, this did make me think.
the CONCEPT behind this program (cough) and its application are GREAT!
but I look at the output and go EW!!!

Then realise, in pursuit too, of correctness and ALL the things we are taught (well, teach ourselves in most cases, from peers who have ALSO bought into it.)

Best practice, WHILE being best practice… isolates those creative crazy’s from the web and stops it once again looking like the 90’s (well, this app is doing its best to resurrect those heady days)

But, don’t you remember how EXCITING and FUN those times were?
(shhh. don’t mention frustration and browser wars and and and… etc)

Now?
We have Bootstrap… that God Aweful sameness
I’m so pleased every site follows a norm (icon top left… nav… accessibility … MASSIVE WASTE OF SPACE jumbotron… 3 columns OOOH SHINY… pricing variations…oh god…make it stop already… colour coordinated footer…oh my god…make it stop,

SO, yes, I have a love/hate relationship with all of this , and this er fine (oh my poor eyes) product kind of highlights that.

So, even though its output both rendered and in code is AARGH!!

I kind of like the ethos (and ability to mange things remotely I mean! come on! what’s not to like about this?)

AH, all fun stuff eh?

Anyway, apart from the thought provoking thing that this app brought about by making me question the standards and how they stifle creativity, has anyone here ever done much with VRML or its follow ups>?

IF so, care to share?

We had to make 3D rooms when I was in Uni and make navigation areas in there (ie, book cases, to take you to content library etc - believe me, a link is a LOT quicker to create!)

So, what do. you guys think?

#6

Hi Ian,

about 3D in web, I have no opinion at all. If it is time, I’ll have a look into (or if I’m even retired at that point - then it’s excellent anyway).

About web-apps, doing things for me, it’s pretty much the same: I long stopped thinking about them - literally. It’s a waste of time digging that hole. We have a language - use it - period.

Regarding uniformity of web and design:

There I’m a bit more critical. “All websites do look the same?” All of you complaining it - none of you is doing something different. Conclusion: You are all NOT designer - if you would be, you long would have changed many things! I remember CSS-Tricks as it currently exists came out. The people were shocked. It looked different from anything before. Admittedly I didn’t like it, too.

Interestingly enough, I did my first “responsive client page” back in late 2012. I’ve never heard of “bootstrap” before nor would it have helped me at that time, cause my app in use didn’t support any external code (library). This app is btw the reason why I’m stopped looking for any other of that range.

This page from “the past” still exists and I’m amused how it basically looks. Somehow fresh and new (at this time), somehow pretty similar to what’s called today “the uniformity”. But that’s the way, I’m used to design for years - kinda my style.

Why not? I mean - it would be in general pretty interesting to create a page just using H1-H6 and paragraphs for content - some line-breaks for structuring content - that’s it. And we suddenly realise, that those pages are responsive by default and for making them pretty (whatever it will mean) all about CSS text properties (Google FONTs allowed). Color? Hm - yes why not.

Long story short: You can do it - and you should do it. The rest is decoration and a bit of kitten.

Cheers

Thomas

#7

Not it, or its follow-ups, but definitely its predecessors. I was a HUGE fan of the Commodore Amiga. In fact, I still have my A-2500 which I got back in the late 1980’s. Before that, I had the original A-1000. The Amiga was the first personal computer to do 3D “ray tracing”, which was basically creating objects from geometric primitives, adding light source(s) and the telling the machine to “render” the scene using mathematical formulas to describe materials, light, and so on.

The results were bleeding-edge at the time, but they’re incredibly primitive by today’s standards. It used to take an entire day for my then state-of-the-art 68040, 40mhz motorola processor to render a scene, and it could take a week or longer to render a simple animation, but the Amiga is where it (3D) all started. I recently read that the newest graphic cards can render photo-realistic 3D environments in real-time. So it took just under 30 years. That means the next great leap should take about three years (assuming exponential tech progress.)

3D on the web will grow explosively as soon as someone figures out a cheap way to implement augmented reality. This video is a little over-the-top, but it gives the general idea of what I forsee coming, and what I think the web will develop into. Can you imagine having to create this insanity!?!

#8

And yet, there is a certain degree of merit in this philosophy.

I’ve always enjoyed the thought experiment which goes as follows… if tomorrow we all woke up and every single human-made thing was gone… EVERYTHING… all our technology, our books, our machines, everything down to our simplest tools… if all we had was nature at our disposal, could we rebuild our civilization? Could we get it to anything even remotely resembling what we have now?

We would be forced to work purely off the knowledge and experience in our heads. The oldest and most experienced people would instantly become the most important people on earth. How long would it take to make simple tools? To refine metal? To build a printing press, or a computer? Would the world ever be the same, or perhaps better? Would it take decades? Centuries? Millennia?

Just think about the lineage behind something like a website. Code, sure, but then there is the tech that went into everything that enables a website to exist, from the LCD monitor to the plastic keys of the keyboard. For them to be possible, we need electronics… silicon chips, printed circuit boards, wires, transistors, as well as petroleum to make the plastics, metal to make the forms for the molds, hundreds if not thousands of machines to do everything from mining the earth for copper to the pumping the petroleum from the ground for the plastics. We also need electricity… generators, fuel to power them, wires to carry the electricity from the powerplant to the home. But even the home doesn’t exist because there are no tools to build it… no metal to make the saws to cut down the trees.

We would need people with the most basic skills all the way up to the most brilliant engineers and scientists, and we’d have no books or data to reference. Only what we have in our heads. Could we do it?

#9

I hope not! :slight_smile: I mean, look what we have now?
Well in a lot of *surreal, abstract, removed from reality (says me, typing on a computer to an ephemeral being on a different part of the globe… or just good A.I? :wink: )

Just how does it relate to Nature… plants, animals… we have built a technological barrier between us and the planet we live on.

I mean, how many people even NOTICE … the nature in a city? Take time out to watch the jackdaws (choice of local bird for you here) swarm and listen to them?

Thats without policitica agendas, illegal wars, wars in general… like a legal one is any better?

SO! thats Why I forage off into the woods , and do bushcraft and keep my survival stuff up to scratch (kind of for this climate.)

Yes, its easy now… and if it was to stay this way… ya yah, whats my point.
Well, the thing is, with climate, meteorites, solar flaring, tsunamis, anything we know as concrete could be gone in a flash.

So, your a web designer? mmmm
Take a 2 week solar flaring, all power grid down holiday…
See how that affects your business and life in General. No electricity, most places fall to pieces,

Hell, here in the UK, 4 inches of snow and we grind to a halt! *sometimes 2!

Or, a la Iraq, your country is invaded and suddenly your back in the Stone Age.
It just takes a random act of nature or a dodgy supposition about your kind of people/regime and suddenly,
Your eating tree back, with your hands…

Thought provoking stuff in this soon to be festive season! cheers guys :slight_smile:

…and I NEARLY got an amiga, after leaving the Army in 1992, back in the forest, living in a trailer, working as an outdoor instructor… I was intrigued!
I bought a printer for it (huge, a3, dot matrix thing, - it was for sale in the local computer shop) As I sussed out the computer… then the guy put the price up! nearly doubled it.

SO I never bought it!
And the rollers rusted on that printer and its full box of A3 dot matrix paper with its little detatchable holes! Gah!

Also, on the other thread, with regards @Thomas, as he says

  • “All of you complaining it - none of you is doing something different. Conclusion: You are all NOT designer - if you would be, you long would have changed many things!” *

Well, anyone of us COULD do weird stuff (and I am NOT a self professed designer - although I SEE designs in my head… just like anyone else) but
It would fall at the first hurdle (in horse racing parlance)

ie, its not responsive, its not accessible, etc etc, so there is a whole lot of stuff this creative THING has to adhere too.

Im not knocking having to do these things, Im just noticing that it makes everything look kind of …umm, samey.

But , as you say,

*“if you don’t like it, do something better. *”

Well, that shut me up :slight_smile:

I will have to try :slight_smile:
Cheers guys, good thoughts so far.

#10

This is certainly NOT meant to you personally - it’s just meant to all complainers in this world.

I love such thoughts as well. But probably the other way around. Something like: Assumed we figured out a way to freeze dead bodies and a way bringing them back to life in a future far-far away. Would we understand our surrounding? Will drugs still exist? What’s the value of our penny stocks? As far as I know (I’m not a scientist), its in theory possible to travel into the future - but not into the past :slight_smile: It’s about gravitation - somehow.

Good thoughts guys.

Cheers

Thomas

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#11

Basically, you can travel into the future in one of two ways, and it’s thanks to a little phenomenon called RELATIVITY. The speed at which you pass through space-time is relative. The faster you go, the more time slows down in relation to those around you. We’ve actually been able to test this right here on Earth using incredibly accurate clocks in Indy race cars. When we synchronize two clock, one in the car and one outside it at the start of the race, at the end of the race the clock in the car will show a very, very small difference. Time moved a little bit slower for the driver in the car, and he aged just a tiny bit less than everyone outside the car. We’re talking about absurdly small increments… nanoseconds, but it still proves that the faster you go, the slower time passes.

So, in theory, if we could accelerate an astronaut in orbit around the Earth to 1/2 the speed of light, he would age (I believe) eight time slower than those of us on the ground. If he stayed up there for ten years, when he got back to Earth, 80 years will have passed. Voila, he’s travelled into the future.

The other way is to find a mild singularity (black hole) and park yourself in orbit around it. Due to something called “gravitational lensing” time will move much slower compared to those who are well outside the black holes gravitational influence. This was demonstrated to dramatic effect in the movie Interstellar, when they went to visit Miller’s planet which orbited a black hole. They were on the planet for about two hours, but 23 years had passed when they got back to the ship. Once again, time travel into the future.

#12

…Quantum Mechanics.

Oops!
All change, please get off the bus,
the destination has now changed…

#13

Jeeze, I don’t even use four wheel drive in 4 inches. We occasionally get storms that dump two feet plus in one day. I love getting those big snow events. It’s like the world is forced to slow the hell down for a day or two. Power outages are even more fun. Nothing to do but light candles and play card games and such.

thats Why I forage off into the woods , and do bushcraft and keep my survival stuff up to scratch

Years ago, when I was much more spry, I and about 15-20 friends would head off to a remote island in the middle of Lake George in upstate NY. Pure wilderness. No power. No buildings. Just what we brought with us. We’d stay about a week practicing everything from knife throwing to camouflage to small game trapping. I used to teach a segment on outdoor survival. I spent a lot of years learning “just in case.” I feel pretty well prepared if modern society every sh*ts the bed.

I was and am a designer (artist) by trade. I’ve done everything from screenprinted t-shirts to websites to product logos, trade show displays, CD labels, you name it. Websites are definitely the most challenging because while it’s fairly easy to make a cool looking website, it’s hard to make it “come to life” into something functional, that gracefully degrades for smaller screens, that is fast, compact, has great content and SEO, converts visitors, and won’t look too dated in 3-4 years.

#14

Nice!

yeah I have a love hate relationship with this tech/ creativity thing.

but I am amply suited to fail at both with total gusto.
twigs trees, grass an worms will always be there for me to fall back on :slight_smile:

:slight_smile: I also hang out with this fine chap occasionally, running around, doing silly things.

http://mountainandriveractivities.co.uk

and I’m ex military, so that helps with that sort of thing… and little else :smiley:

ps, his wife does his website, so that’s fine for them.

oh, in fact, that’s me on the banner image on this site a couple of times, with the white top and red helmet!

http://mountainandriveractivities.co.uk/activities/rockclimbing.html

woo hoo, famous (in my own mess tins)

1 Like
#15

Ahh… rock climbing. Another thing I miss from my youth. I live a couple hours away from some of the best climbing on the East Coast, known as “the Gunks” for their location in the Shawangunk Mountains.

Good ponytail BTW!

1 Like
#16

… hang on… the Gunks…?.. in the ShawanGunk… Mountains?

Shaw we all show an tell da gunky mountains … …is this Xmas or April fools day?
must go and do some googling

And Glad you approve of the fantastic Hairstyle.
I may just have to do a mullet again some time, but since I currently look like Grizzly Adams with the mother of all beards, it would like like my head had been put on upside down.

does Googleage

wow!

Neither of us have gone stark raving mad!
they exist…>

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g48915-d109994-Reviews-Shawangunk_Mountains-Woodstock_Catskill_Region_New_York.html

#17

The Gunks are in “upstate” “New York”, which is considered a part of “New England” aka, the new versions of the places across the pond where you are… “York”, “England”, etc.

I myself am half English, with my mother’s parents (Nelson - no relation to Lord Admiral) being from “Old England.”

The mountains themselves are named after one of the indigenous native tribes that lived there before it was all taken from them and renamed “New England.”

#18

:frowning:

Sniff…

kind of like here, I live in Wales… where most of it has been taken by the English.
You don’t have to go that far back.
My grandmother used to get soap rammed in her mouth for speaking Welsh when in school,
our native language, as they tried to stamp that out.
They did a pretty good job in this area.

OH, and they didn’t have Dyslexia here… as
it hasn’t come this far West yet

Sweet Jesus!
Welcome to the Stone Age in the UK…

Give it up for LoGic

#19

Man! I’ve only just actually watched this, is I fantastic!

Just alike all my hells rolled into one!

Im off to the Forest for Xmas, and I have never been so happy to get da FLIP away from everything after seeing that :stuck_out_tongue:
cheers!

Dang , we have covered some topics in this thread!
Gotta love it all.

HAPPY XMAS EVERYONE… if you want to have one. :slight_smile:

#20

I thought your accent sounded more Celtic than English. :wink: