All these companies started out with one product and then expanded, when they expanded their range they didn’t decide to keep everything under the same name/brand, they established a distinguishing marque for each under the umbrella of the company. Can you imagine if all Ford car models were called Model T.
This is a disappointing decision and a loss for the community.
Come on, we have never failed to promote Pinegrow on the major social networks when launching its different versions and this will still be the case for this version 5.
Now, if the feedback of our customers and users is essential to us to make Pinegrow evolve, being master of the clocks with regard to our communication on social networks remains one of our prerogatives:)
Yay! PineGrowUser filter set to defunct
Good lord guys, I have been out doing hospital visits, looking after old people, doctors, after having downloaded this and having had NO TIME to play with and
Really! Sweet Jesus.
What a load of old tosh comments!
There is SOME, very little, well constructed Feedback. Well done on that but the rest?
My god, … really? REALLY? how Constructive, non toxic and whiney is some of that.
I’m pretty tangential at times, and even I AM … wierded out by the vehemence of some of this, over VERY LITTLE … annoyances… weirdnesses… odd choices, but man!
The chosen method of delivery… kind of lacks some etiquette.
Anyway, I am looking forward to playing around and I hope everyone gets over their mojo and PLAYS with this, starts to use it constructively and then… comes back with some useful feedback.
I mean, "W"s… marketing… global marketing… implicated Wordpress pushing…
I have been known to delete some of my less than glorious comments over my time here,
It may benefit some of these to share the same fate and then,
Chin up … crack on.
I only pointed out the “W” because I thought it was a mistake (as the link is the same as clicking the pinecone.) I don’t mean to beat a dead horse, but I’ve never once had a need to go to a software company’s website while in the midst of using their program. On RARE occasions, I might go to their forum, but I have this bookmarked in my browsers, one of which is always open on one of my monitors.
Many years ago, one of the things that drove a lot of us who use Adobe programs bonkers is when they put a link to their homepage at the bottom of the toolbars in Photoshop and Illustrator. It was so close to the tools, that you could easily accidentally click it, and this was back in the Windows XP days, when computers were slower, browsers were slower and the internet was much slower. One errant click and you had to wait about 10-20 seconds for the stupid browser to open and load the page before you could close it. It was an infuriating source of interruptions, and we complained vehemently. Finally, after a few more releases, Adobe removed it. A rare instance of them listening to their customers.
As Pinegrow is a single monitor program, real estate is at a premium. Anything that is not vital to using the program should be hidden away in a menu. Things that are frequently accessed (like breakpoint sizes) would benefit from being icons rather than a pulldown menu example:
As for the Wordpress debate… I have the Pro, NON-Wordpress version of the program, and honestly I don’t want to see any of the Wordpress version features in any of my panels or menus, but there they are. And more than that, they can be “quasi-activated” causing code changes, despite the fact that I can’t build Wordpress templates with my version of the program. example… why should any of the stuff in red even be possible in the non-Wordpress version of Pinegrow? I can activate it, interact with the panels, and it changes the HTML even though I can’t even build a Wordpress Template. Honestly, I don’t care if they remain, but they should at least be non-selectable/grayed out so I can’t pretend to activate them.
(Thanks PrintNinja for your input - - please see my inserts)
Good point, Pinegrow_User. I’d like to see a bit of cleaning up to simplify the busy panel tops in the right column. Like placing the icons under the Visual Editor in a dropdown so some don’t disappear if the column is narrowed. And the option to remove the WordPress icon.
This is very funny, thanks!
So, continuing in a lighthearted and honest mode:
The Mystery of the W
At first I thought nobody noticed it. And then I read this thread. Looks like we’re getting better at marketing, awakening attention and viral discussions with moves like this
The W stands for… Web Editor.
The idea behind including it in the UI was to prepare the ground for expanding product range under a unified Pinegrow umbrella. We would combine the Pine logo with a letter to identify a product. But, considering the feedback here, we’ll have to go back to the lab with this strategy.
We have no intention on pushing WP on Pinegrow users. As cleared above - W is not WP. We do include the WP panel in the standard UI because it lets users discover the feature. Looking back at the release history, most of our effort - 90%+ - goes into improvement of general purpose HTML & CSS editing features. And there are no plans to change that.
Pride & Competition
Here I’m taking the liberty to talk for our whole team - @earnoud, @MhdAljuboori feel free to correct me. All of us are non-North Americans. Due to our culture and upbringing, feeling proud in our work doesn’t come that naturally - even more so publicly expressing it. In our parts of the world, modesty is a virtue and there is not much notion of a positive pride, feeling proud for something good you did. Of course, this doesn’t make much rational sense.
So props to @earnoud for stepping out of the comfort zone
The truth is that the whole of Pinegrow - not just the WP builder - is pretty amazing!
So, just let us enjoy this pride for a moment And don’t worry - it will not corrupt us.
Lots of revived creativity is happening in web-development-tool space at the moment. Some is driven (or inspired) by us and some by our competitors. And that process brings benefits to all who engage in developing and designing for the web.
It also prevents us from feeling complacent.
That said, I also don’t plan on loosing any sleep over what our competitors are doing. We do try to learn from their mistakes and successes, but we have our vision and our approach. And even if we make mistakes (and we do lots of them for sure), we’re in this game for a long run, which means that we have the time to fix them.
Pinegrow 5 promotion
There is a very boring reason for delaying our social posts a bit. The Windows installer is not signed, because the code signing certificate expired last week. Of course, I discovered this when building release packages on the night before the release.
That said, I’m the first in line to admit that we have under-developed marketing skills. I know that it often doesn’t look like that - but we are trying to improve at marketing and listen to our community input on this.
Which brings us to…
Appreciating your feedback & input
On this we should be evaluated based on our actions, not just words. Many features proposed by our users here actually end up implemented. Pinegrow 5 is a good example of that.
It might take a year or more for good ideas to end up in the product, not because we’re lazy and don’t care, but because things take their time, and there are always many tasks competing for limited attention and resources.
Some things are simply hard to make, for example multi-monitor support. Pinegrow is not a native app, it’s basically a web app. That makes implementing classical multi-window UI difficult. I’ll propose some hybrid ideas in a separate thread.
Secondly, we’re trying to be open about what we are doing, without formalities or pretending that we’re more competent than we actually are. For me, that makes it more fun - even on days when I discover people don’t appreciate my W
If I came roaring out of the gate sounding overly critical of PG5, I apologize. I can be a little bit too “Mr. Spock-like” when I look something over for the first time.
Pinegrow is a phenomenal product, and a monumental achievement. It’s in a class by itself, and absolutely the team should be proud as hell - American style bragging proud - about this amazing piece of software. What little things the UI/UX may lack are more than made up for by the fact that the program limits you in NO WAY, something no other visual web editing software can claim.
Just allowing your customers to buy and OWN the software outright is a real class move in today’s cloud-based-rent-a-program environment. I completely ditched Adobe when they switched to the monthly rental model. I wouldn’t go near Webflow for the same reason. You guys keep it old-school, and we old-timers appreciate that like you can’t imagine.
As far as I’m concerned, you’re doing everything right. (Just promise you won’t sell Pinegrow to Adobe!!!)
It was surprising (and a bit funny) how 40x40 pixels, can trigger people to assumptions.
I agree, 100% !!!
Every (new) feature or adjusment to optimize things, is a step in the right direction. The product is evolving and is getting better (and better) each version/release.
The problem is that you can’t please always everybody. If you don’t like or need a specific feature, just ignore it and/or don’t use it (or complain about it). I know for sure that there are always enough people that do love them and will use them.
I also understand that it can be a bit disappointing, if you are waiting or was hoping for a certain feature to finally arive. that still is missing. There is almost always a (good) reason for it, no matter if it’s time or technical limitations (like Matjaz explained).
The team is small and they have a lot to-do and their day is, like for the most of us, limited to 24 hours. Always making choices what to do, and in which order. Every feature that they implement, no matter if it’s a feature you like or not, is one down off their to-do list. And makes the list shorter to get to the point they got time to look and work on other things you maybe like more/better.
They don’t always react on feedback or suggestions, but I know they see and read it all, no matter if it’s on the forum/slack/mail/socials. They don’t work with roadmaps or making hard promises. So there is no pressure to build things for a certain date because they promised it. Better build things right (and bug free), than rushing things.
And how fun is it to wake up every day, with the knowledge that you can be surprised with new features that you didn’t see coming. That way it can be Christmas every day!
but but but… what about ME?
If there are NO BUGS… where is the challenge for me?
I AM the bug magnet…
It’s been tough with PG for me for a while now as the WONDERFULLY weird bugs I used to find are getting harder and harder to find!
I mean, I TOO, only have 24 hrs in a day and… well! I could spend them ALL searching, and failing to find bugs… its so disheartening!
mmmm talking of which, I haven’t used the undo function for quite a while, maybe I will play with that later today ( I cant remember if that sorted itself out after.)
yep and like previous 2 posters said…well, yeah, just Yeah, and cheers @matjaz for taking the time out to compose this fine retort (in a foreign language) and taking the feedback so well
Yah know, this really is why I like this whole Pinegrow Ethos/eco system/app thing so much.
The product and the potential it offers me to learn with it and Move OUT of my current stage, without locking my feeble web code into some proprietary pay jail or online lock in.
The inspiring people and attitude behind it. This actually MAKES ME WANT TO LEARN TO USE IT AND BETTER MYSELF.
I even come here most everyday and try to learn and help others here, due to the deep yearning to better my self and assist others, using Pinegrow, because I LIKE THE COMMUNITY.
1 and 2 are interchangeable in order
No other application has EVER installed such inspiration in me. SO thanks. Me and @marf were actually trawling the site, looking for snippets and clues to the release dates and times, like kids pulling their parents house apart, just before Christmas, looking for presents!
mmmm, this sounds like far too much, unpalatable fanboy feedback.
can someone please abuse me and put me in my place?.. oh! @Pinegrow_User, where are you when I NEED you? - #banter
Somehow I think you’ll be fine and still find something by way of feedback.
I found a bug… download a website create in Adobe Muse, open an HTML page and if one of the CSS stylesheets that is referenced in the HTML is missing, Pinegrow will hang. I have to force quit with task-manager.
Bug thief… THIEF!
they are mine I tell you, MINE! get you filthy hands off MY BUGS!
Feel free to reproduce it yourself and report it. I’m too lazy.
Naaaaa… crack on… sob you’ve stole my glory… mumbles into coffee cup and talks to house plants… …
Pitiful whining sounds in background…
Many thanks for all the hard work on version 5 @matjaz and team. The new features further facilitate my daily work.
Keep growing the pines.
Hmmmm… I don’t know, looking at this again. The ‘W’ does clutter the interface a bit and since it has the exact same link and caption as the Pinecone it is redundant. I know now after reading @Matjaz post that the W stands for Web Editor, I know that Piengrow is a web editor, that is why I purchased it.
Does this mean that Pinegrow is branching off into non web editing software?
I agree with the others that the feature help and menu’s should be version specific, the PRO version shouldn’t have WP and Non Pro features in the menus and panels. If I did not activate the addon why should I see the panel tab for it?
Anything that is not specific to the version of Pinegrow I have should not be in the interface at all.
It is a distraction, clutters the interface and takes up room and frankly gets in the way when I am trying to work. I have to skip over or rearrange the panel tabs to move the wordpress feature which I do not have to the end of the tabs so I don’t keep accidentally clicking on it to get to the panel I was trying to get to.
I know this wasn’t directed at me, but upon seeing it I’m reminded of one of my greatest frustrations which are the persistent yellow notification boxes that pop up one after another when you make a mistake like clicking a non-editable area a few times. What bothers me is not being notified, but rather how the boxes just linger directly over the work area, and can’t be closed. If they were system messages, I could use my “click off” program to just close them instantly, like I do with Adobe error notices, but then Adobe allows you to disable error notices in lieu of a simple “beep.” A beep would be infinitely preferable to a series of big yellow boxes blocking the workspace.
I will admit, that I too, see no point in the W and having tabs you can’t use, whilst being intriguing are more than likely annoying if you cant /don’t wish to use them.
I get this popping up on normal web pages or ones opened via URL and tbh, I have no idea what I can do about it , it just means that I can …view…nothing.
This does confuse me quite frequently.