Freeway Pro refugees

General
41

A bit a pity that this specific thread became an unspecific kind of nothing.

What Freeway made unique is, that you (mostly) started projects from scratch. A blank “workspace” waited to be filled with content. So in Freeway I had the hope to meet designers - but mostly stumbled about so called DTP specialists (which are definitely not designers in my term).

In Pinegrow, I’m having had exactly the same hope - meeting designers.

Obviously, web design doesn’t work without fucking frameworks, blocs and predefined modules and templates anymore. But I’ll never give up the hope standing on the shoulders of giants once a day.

Cheers

Thomas

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42

Thomas - I hope you’re just showing humour but if you’re actually being serious, people need to stop talking, stop moaning and start learning.

With my videos I show what can be achieved with a very basic understanding of the Bootstrap framework (which is perfect for modern web design) - its not about “sleeping” with a framework, its about understanding why that framework benefits you as a designer.

I think most of the “Freeway refugees” want the easy option, they aren’t prepared to put effort in and its not our problem if people don’t want to ask questions.

Maybe Terry was right when he said (along the lines) that Freeway users aren’t suited to Pinegrow, there are plenty of web developments app’s out there, that hold your hand and guide you, if thats what you want and before anyone jumps on me for that comment - I’ve used them in the past, everyone has I’m sure, but my aim is to be an absolute master/guru of bootstrap and I’m on target.

People like good design, design is visual for the consumer and people that have mastered DTP can move into web design.

Why do you think programmers say “design is easy” when their websites look crap? if design is so easy, why aren’t they designing websites that look good?

You know why? because their brain doesn’t understand the design process and they know that, much like designers like me, our brains struggle with understanding programming and its good to have a forum with a variety of individuals, with different talents.

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Frameworks are just tools, not every framework is suitable for every situation and knowing which ones are best for a specific circumstance or even when not to use a framework is the mark of a pro. If you have to rely on a framework then you are truly limited as a designer / developer.

Foundation from my understanding has a lot of power without the overhead Bootstrap has and can produce the same results, it just gets there differently. I have used frameworks in the past as a developer and I freaking HATED them with a passion. The code was bloated, if I wanted to do one thing that would take me 10 lines or less if I wrote it myself but the framework would let me do same with 3 lines you would think that would be good, no? I looked behind the scenes at how it did that and in the end it was like a christmas tree jumping from 10 different classes, 35+ functions and a lot of the code was very very sloppy and caused extra load on the server. I dumped the frameworks and just coded the features I needed without the bloat. In the end the samething was accomplished and updating was much simpler.

Why reinvent the wheel when you have 500+ people doing the work for you? Because there are 500+ people involved and the code was a complete nightmare mess with 500 different directions going on at once. I hate frameworks on a developer side of things for that purpose.

On the other side of it though, I like them for giving functionality that I would NEVER be able to do myself. JQuery, Bootstrap, Foundation and all the other ones out there we have heard of and those we haven’t.

I think it is a mistake though as a professional or on the road to being one, to lock in on one framework or one aspect of web design / development. That does NOT mean you are a jack of all trades and master of none it just means you learn how to use the tools available and through this you know when one will be better for the job at hand. Have multiple tools in your tool belt with the knowledge to use them and you will out distance those that can only do one thing in one way.

I hired a designer a while back that all their sites were done a certain way. I wanted them to do a site in a different style, they said sure no problem. The end result? The same site that they always built, in the same way they always have done it. Their a one trick pony. Don’t be a one trick pony when it comes to web design or development.

I know automotive mechanics that make their own tools out of other tools. Cutting two or three different sized wrenches in half then welding them together to make a tool out of the most used sizes, or half wrench half screw driver. I don’t know any coder that doesn’t take bits of pre-existing code and mixes them together with their own code to get the results they need. Relying on just one way or one tool is a mistake and in a way puts you in the Freeway user spot of not knowing anything out of that scope of work flow.

@Jack if I were to offer you a thousand dollars to build a site without bootstrap that gives the same features and functions could you do it? With or without any framework? I am not actually offering you money, my point is that the creativity is not based on the tool or framework and if the thinking @Thomas has is that it is then I can’t relate to that at all, even a little bit.

I am not saying don’t use frameworks, don’t use Bootstrap or any specific tool or work flow but if you had to do the samething yourself with just a blank text editor window could you do it? In some ways these frameworks limit people but @Jack is showing me that you can mold Bootstrap to your own way so maybe I am wrong. The sign of a good tool is one that molds itself to your desires and not lock you into the frameworks way of doing something. Which is why I mostly have stayed away from them up to this point.

With Pinegrow and if @Jack can actually be bothered to talk in any of his videos then it would help me a lot to learn more about bootstrap design within PG. Have your girlfriend or wife narrate it if you can’t or pull someone off the street to talk into a mic… LOL Yeah, I follow along to a point but after awhile the clicking and moving around in the video I am like, why did he just do that? What was the thinking behind that move there?

Alright… done with rant.

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Actually a lot don’t. They are left brained and are too busy making the stuff work that designers take for granted. :wink:

I can do both but it is a real switch from coding to visual design. If I were 100% right brained I would be a much more improved graphic designer and specialist of the pretty like yourselves. At some point I will put something together for you to look at and then you can make fun of me for thinking I am a designer. LOL

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45

I don’t need bootstrap but the whole point of using bootstrap is because I enjoy working with the framework and I’m a big believer people produce their best work when they enjoy the process, plus there is the responsive aspect and developers have created features such as smart components, so I’m focusing on what allows me to build responsive websites while also learning about CSS and the HTML code.

As for designing a website without a framework - it depends on the website and the stage I’m at in terms of learning HTML/CSS. I only started learning Bootstrap/CSS/HTML as of this year, so if I was claiming to be a professional coder, you may have a point in asking me that question but I work with what I enjoy most and the end result is the most important aspect.

As for frameworks, they only limit people who have limited knowledge or limited creative thinking and I’ve no doubts that I’ve made the correct decision in focusing on developing websites using the bootstrap framework and css.

I could have gone for the easy option with Wordpress (that is bloated). I could have just purchased templates and sold them as my own work. I could have relied on other people creating bootstrap blocks for me.

Instead I build my own blocks, virtually all the time from scratch with nothing more than a visual image between my ears and if in the future there is a reason to use a different framework or no framework then I will explore that and i’ve no doubt I’ll cope once I get over any learning curve thats required.

Christmas present Terry, it’s coming, don’t worry! :grinning:

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I actually have a lot of respect for programmers and the work involved, especially with php scripts and software like PInegrow - all credit to you and anyone who has put in the hours (even if you think design is easy lol)

One of the reason I show my work, is that it makes me a better designer, it reminds me of the correct process, it drives me to design/build better websites but I’ll always defend design/designers, as that is my passion and people/customers…even Thomas will have picked up a magazine, designed by a pro DTP and thought" wow that looks amazing" and same with websites, layouts/colours, that is design and web design is as much visual as it is coding.

47

A “bit a pity” this type an attitude can’t become abandonware also. The Pinegrow community seems quite friendly, and I truly would hope it would remain that way by ALL. I don’t really see how this thread is deemed specific and unspecific. What is specific without question however, is that Freeway Pro is no more. So not dwelling on that fact and speaking past it seems abundantly pertinent.

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48

What I like about this forum is I can make sly cheap shots about applemac/wp and programmers not understanding design, but it’s all in good fun and posters like terry & rob don’t take it personal!

By the way - Bootstrap is pretty sexy, so why wouldn’t you want to get in bed with Bootstrap!

49

@Jack because Foundation is better :wink:

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50

I totally missed this. But sadly I am well aware of the CC debacle. I railed against it pretty hard on the Adobe Forums in the CC section when they announced no more perpetual software. I used only their own numbers and facts in a polite manner. However, I was warned and intimidated repeatedly by staff members and employees via private message. I had posts disappear and deleted, it was total spin control as they rolled out the CC magic kool-aid and built the CC marketing mirage. I have CS5 Master collection so I am fine for now. I don’t buy into Adobe’s propaganda that unless you have their latest versions you can’t be creative or produce award winning work. People are doing that very thing across the globe without CC everyday. If someone can tell visually the final artwork was created in CS2,3,4,5,6 or CC I would love to know how, in the end it’s just vectors and pixels. :wink:

Time will tell though as stated above it would be for 3rd party reasons not Adobe. I had wished I would have grabbed the boxed version of CS6 at the upgrade price of $525 (for nostalgia), before they jacked it up to $1500+ to swindle people and force them to crawl to CC.

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@Pinegrow_User I’m with you on that, I haven’t move on from CS3 and I’m happy with the work I do and I’ve yet to hear a client complain that it wasn’t done using CC.

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Last time they had the CS6 available to my mind they were charging $3,500.00 USD for it. I was ecstatic when Creative Cloud came along, I was on board from the beginning, Receive CS6 and updates for $50 a month, oh yeah!

Then over the years they started killing off their software features that Freelancers and Independants want and were more than useful and would of been THE defacto workflow for web design and development. Adobe just really really really does not like Freelancers and their actions prove it.

They have killed off and abandoned every single tool designed specifically for responsive html except for Dreamweaver and Muse but they are working on doing that now too. Adobe is essentially cutting their business to get rid of their user base and focus more on Corporate Users. The deal recently with Microsoft to provide Windows users with Creative Cloud doesn’t make sense to me in light of their destain for individual and freelance users. Whatever feature people wanted and were talking about Adobe went the other way or killed off the app entirely, flabbergasted a lot of people with these moves.

I wasn’t going to renew CC when my subscription would of ended but thanks to Amazon support it happened early. Then I bought Pinegrow and moved on. :wink:

53

We just give it back… LOL

I want to deal with REAL people and not some corporate politically correct robots.
Misunderstandings happen, people get upset but those that don’t let it bother them and keep on keeping on that’s what I like. The bottom line here in this forum for me is that we learn from each other. We’re not all from the same country, background or have the same way of doing things. That is FANTASTIC because I learn more from this environment than just those that are like me… boring.

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54

Hello! I am yet another FW refugee and I am certainly lost at this time as to what to do with my future in web building. I am severely dyslexic and therefore I have a very difficult time dealing with “code”. It certainly is not as easy to learn as many people try to make it out to be, for me it is nearly impossible.

Freeway Pro seemed like the prefect fit for me as I could create a good looking site for my clients, but much more importantly, I could control the input of my custom SEO and then rule the search engine results. I find it very easy to make websites appear on the first page of search results very consistently as that takes zero coding knowledge and is all just common sense. (I’ve been studying SEO since 1997, a year before Google was released.)

I find it far more easy to start off with a blank page and create from there than ever trying to use someone else’s template. So when I look at a blank page within Pinegrow I am completely and utterly lost. The videos available for Pinegrow really do not seem to have anything to help those that are completely new to Pinegrow and have no coding experience.

It seems that Pinegrow is the tool to use for building websites into the future, but how do I get started? I’m about ready to go with Sparkle just because I could/can start making a website within minutes of starting to use it, whereas it seems it could be months before I will be able to get anything done with Pinegrow. Suggestions?

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I am always curious, how have you come to the choice of Sparkle for your base level (ability to avoid code) visual app, -vs- say Blocs app or any of the others with similar no-code concepts?

Anyway, if needed you could certainly use Sparkle or other apps such as it (assuming they produce quality code) to build your base structure so you have something to work with visually in Pinegrow to then develop further with if you want. And use that approach until you become more familiar with Pinegrow and building sites directly in it.

1997 SEO was a lot easier back then, far less sites online to compete with (big jump from 1996 though). :wink:

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To be honest with you, I have not explored all my options like Blocs. Guess I ought to find some videos on YouTube and see what’s up with Blocs. Thing is about Sparkle is that it is Mac only and that is a plus for me in some ways because I know it will must likely me more intuitive for my use than something maybe built of multi-platforms.

Indeed SEO has gotten more complex over the years, but many of the real basics remain. I have found that the correct organic SEO in a static website will always kill the CSM sites, especially WP. (But SEO is a different subject, which I made a separate post on the forum.)

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@Rgator Is it the style/design functionality of Pinegrow you are struggling with or is it just adding content and structuring it that is the problem. I’d suggest you approach it with content/SEO in mind. Add the content elements first, e.g. h1-h6, paragraphs, images, etc. Then start to logically group them into header, footer, nav, sections, columns, articles, asides and so on. By doing this you will follow a natural flow for someone who is use to SEO and your contented will help structure your page layout and so on. Once you’re happy with the structure of your page you can start to consider the look and feel of it and start to add css and images where needed to create a more polished web page.

Other than that if you’re stuck feel free to ask questions and as a community we’ll do our best to help out. Welcome to Pinegrow!

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Oh ok, I was just curious. Unless your system is outdating itself or you need to update your OS to a version that does not support Freeway Pro for other reasons, you could just continue to use FP to build your site/structure. Then open that site in Pinegrow to proceed with it as desired. Verse getting another app like Sparkle, etc., if you want to ease into Pinegrow, while you get used to it.

I think once you understand Pinegrows approach you will be fine however, as @Rob stated.

59

So never being a Freeway user and inspired by this recent thread and @Thomas , I downloaded the FP demo and checked it out. Along with looking back in time via the wonders of the internet at documentation and such. I can now see why design minded people liked FP, much like their mantra declared:

“Freeway is completely focused on web design, but its past lies in page layout and print design. It does exactly what you need it to do as a web designer, in precisely the way you know how to do it as a traditional designer.”

It felt a lot like early Ad$be Cre$tive Suit$ versions, or earlier non-CS versions of Ad$be products. So it’s understandable those familiar with Illustrat$r and Photosh$p as designers probably felt less challenged and more at home using the app.

Anyway I now understand better the absence FP users are trying to fulfill via the means of other apps. In the end though as many search for apps, it’s important to try and put forth effort to learn HTML/CSS/JS then you wont ever be dependent on an app and more opportunities will present themselves.

I like to try lots of apps, demos, clouds for the UI/UX evaluation, experience and seeing how features differ amongst offerings. I find it interesting and insightful.

For this same reason, over the weekend I bought “Xpressive” $19 via the Mac App store, for this very purpose as it looked interesting and somewhat like Pinegrow. I had known about it since last year, but never really looked into it further. It seems to be a rather obscure app and not talked about much even when it was released. It should be noted that it has not been updated since mid 2015 (and perhaps wont be?) but since it uses native files like Pinegrow it is fine. In many ways it’s like Pinegrow, but perhaps worth checking out for those that are designed minded as some of the UI controls and settings are visually grouped more logically than the current version of Pinegrow. But much like Pinegrow it’s UI/UX requires some time to comprehend. Given it’s low price point, I am glad I bought it, as it’s an interesting app. It offers some interesting features like drag and drop movement and placement as well, which as talked about in another thread would be a nice feature for Pinegrow as well. Also much like Pinegrow it allows the users to learn about the required HTML/CSS/JS as well.

I’m not trying to confuse anyone or send users away from Pinegrow, I just love reviewing different apps, demos, clouds, etc. I trust likewise the new UI coming in Pingrow v3 will improve all users leverage of the app, both beginners and advanced developers. I have high expectations. :wink:

:evergreen_tree: :heart:

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Not sure just a UI update will do that. I hope they add many of the features requested by users in the forum especially since I came along there has been quite a few new suggestions with examples that I really would like to see. Though they have not revealed any details I too am looking forward to version 3 when it comes out soon.